As a biological psychologist, and a fellow human being, I completely agree that "the bastardisation of language" to describe female bodies is misogyny. And, I find the term to which you refer here as particularly vulgar. Thank you for your principled, thoughtful essay. Sincerely, Frederick
Interesting. Julie appears to have deleted my comment which included a link to a fact checking website which pointed out this story was culture war froth from the Mail and essentially untrue. Nobody is recommending health professionals call vaginas front holes.
Look if you don’t like her writing, why are you even here? Maybe you should find some other platform to start finding fault with women and their opinions. And by the way there are many MANY highly paid groups doing just that - changing language and definitions of women and our body parts to dehumanise us and cause cognitive dissonance within society. Including health professionals. So why why don’t you do some fact checking of your own.
I’m here because I do/did find her writing interesting and it provided me - straight, white middle aged man - with a perspective I didn’t otherwise have. I’m posting because I care about understanding the issues and value good debate, not because I’m trying to gaslight anyone.
If you want this comment section to be an echo chamber of people who don’t care about whether the stories are true, provided they fit the narrative, that’s fine I guess. But it makes me sad because it will make radical feminism less persuasive and effective, because people outside but sympathetic to these ideas will worry that you don’t care about getting stuff right. This community will be dragged down to the level of the right wing trolls and trans extremists who generated this story in the first place.
I acknowledge my privilege, but the response here to honest questions from a sympathetic and interested observer has been pretty hostile. That might be something to reflect on if you’re interested in changing minds or making change. I’m really interested in examples of mainstream groups forcing women to adopt new terms or campaigning for that but just can’t find any. If it’s so pervasive perhaps someone would post a link rather than questioning my motives?
Bigfudge is right. A s a radfem myself, its important to get the facts straight like the great feminists who came before me. Those women acted not on reflex but through deep thought and fact gathering. A falsehood is a falsehood. While it is true that there IS language being invented by the trans community to change how we label ourselves, its also important to point out exactly when and how thats happening.
Also to the woman in here shitting on guys for having a say, check yourself. There are misogynists and there are men just to trying to be supportive..nothing this man said here made me think he was mocking the author of this article or women. He simply wanted to get the facts straight so he could understand the clear picture. Thats what we want men to do, isn't it?
I’m not sure what that means here. Julie has deleted another link to a fact check website link highlighting that this is a manufactured story.
It’s possible to think both that there is real misogyny afoot and that the concern here is misplaced.
If you read the guidance that this story is based on it’s clear that it’s about respecting individuals’ preferences about what to call their vagina, not general guidance to adopt a new term. You and I might think wanting to avoid the word vagina is misguided, but this is not about imposing new terms on women.
While it looks like the "front hole" thing was overstated, A LGBTQIA safe sex guide published by Healthline used both the terms "vagina" and "front hole."
Beyond that error, the larger concerns remain. Not for you, perhaps, from your privileged perches.
It's interesting to look at where this is coming from and what people actually say/recommend. The BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth paper that the healthline guides cites as an authority actually recommends this:
> Reflect the language patients use to describe their reproductive organs and bodies (e.g., chest feeding rather than breast feeding; or “front hole” instead of vagina)
From the context, it's clear this is not recommending these terms for mainstream use but rather to respect individual patient preferences. This is much more akin to the case when people request different pronouns. If someone wants to call their vagina a front hole or say they are chest feeding rather than breastfeeding we might agree that they are misguided. We might also try to persuade people that this is part of a wider mysogynistic discourse or a form of self-hate. But it's not clear to me that it is mysogynist to respect individuals' preferences in an specific clinical encounter.
> Not for you, perhaps, from your privileged perches.
This is so gratuitous and unnecessary. Men are also victims of our current dysfunctional public discourses on gender. I am father to teenage children (girl and boy) and I'm deeply concerned for their futures. For my daughter that she will be respected and her female identify fully acknowledged, right to safe spaces protected etc. For my son, that I can shield him from horrendous, pornified corporate culture and help him build a positive, ethical identity as a man in a culture which makes that very hard.
But for both of them I wish for a future where people have a concern for evidence and fair dealing in our public discourse. Deleting clarifications or questions about an article is part of the problem. Taking the bait of trolls in the right wing press is also a big problem because it poisons the well and makes important arguments around protecting female identity less persuasive.
You're not going to reach people or help them understand with this giant chip on your shoulder. Talking down to someone by saying they couldnt possibly understand a concept from their "privileged perches" is not the way to get them to listen. We don't like when men talk down to us and condescend us, we shoudlnt do the same..simply because it gets us nowhere. Think of all the women you represent when you talk this way.
Thanks for the links. I can’t see much in those searches that isn’t a Daily Mail or Fox News story, so I suspect we’re not going to learn a lot from them about what medical professionals actually do in practice.
When I do a google of front hole google states and I quote" Front hole – An alternative word for the vagina preferred by some trans men and/or non-binary people with a cervix. It is important to check which words someone would prefer to use." Which is then linked to a Cervix Cancer web site that goes on to talk about language matters to everyone but women born with one and sees accepting that as ok.
Did you read that article? All it adds to this is confirmation that this was always about allowing trans men to use whatever terms they like, rather than guidance for terms to use with women.
The story as written in the mail is still incredibly dishonest and misleading, and so this article likewise unhelpful. Hoax is perhaps too strong, but “bullshit” (writing without regard for truth) is still apt.
There are so many things to be legitimately angry about, the effort to fabricate outrage about this seems weird to me. Trans men have cervixes and need medical care. Some of them might want to say they no longer have a vagina — and in fact their personal rejection of their gender at birth is why they are a trans man, so it’s hardly surprising. That they use different words for body parts and medical professionals who want to support them go along with that doesn’t constitute erasure of identity for all women.
I find it bizarre that there is a concerted effort to coddle people who don't like the words for their biological bits. You can't change from a man to a woman or a woman to a man: it's psychically impossible. You can cut up your body, get rid of things, add things, etc. but that does not result in a transition to the opposite sex. It results in scar tissue.
Trans men have vaginas. End of sentence. If they can't speak the word "vagina" what they need is therapy, not medical professionals buttressing their mental illness.
I guess that's a position someone could hold. I don't agree with the premise that trans men aren't different in important ways from both women and men, or that they couldn't reasonably have preferences about how they address bits of their body. No doubt therapy would be helpful for many people who are unhappy with their gender — but I'm not sure either of us are qualified to judge what is right for the relatively few individuals who go down this path. Although there are extremists and mysoginists in the trans community, that isn't incompatible with the idea that there are also good people who are making a difficult journey. However misguided you think it is, kindness and empathy should be our starting point, rather than stereotyping all trans people as self-hating, mysoginist, reality-deniers, which is where this debate seems to be heading.
But — all this is a completely different discussion from the one we started with: namely, that trans lunacy was erasing women's identity by requiring everyone to call vaginas bonus holes. That just isn't true and obscures much more important debates around real threats to safe spaces, prison sentencing guidelines etc.
This blog and others are themselves quite extreme. I really worry that there is an ecosystem developing whereby (to use shorthand) we get a symbiosis of extreme positions on either side to build audiences, drive traffic. Here there are at least 3 extremes feeding off each other:
1. The Mail and the Telegraph, who want to stoke culture war arguments because the Tories are so incompetent it's their best chance of retaining power.
2. Radical feminists like Julie (and I would myself on this "wing", if any), who read rehash stupid articles like this from the mail to score points against pro-trans extremists, and
3. Trans extremists, who will no doubt use comments like yours to write outraged pieces about how radical feminists stereotype and stigmatise people with gender identity issues, and further motivate attempts to capture professional bodies etc. Unthinking aggression towards individual trans people like yours is grist for the mill, and makes it harder to engage those communities about genuine concerns like over safe spaces, rape centres etc.
The comments on this blog from people who read Julie's article uncritically and launched into totally unjustified speculation that "vagina" and "breastfeeding" were threatened terms are part of the problem, and make me sad because it shows how far we've fallen... Nobody will listen to arguments from radical feminists if the community is suckered into engaging with obvious bullshit like this — and that's a real problem.
Again a white man telling women what they should really be worried about as if he the white man has NO control over any of those issues. This is funny. No one knows better what women should fear and do fear than a white man.
You're right, of course. It's unfortunate that we're not all self-actualized, enlightened beings who can discourse calmly while the earth burns up and trans activists shriek on Twitter that being misgendered is literally killing them. But we don't live in an age of listening. We live in an age of shouting.
I love it when men or yes even white women step into an area and inform the underlings there is more to be concerned about than words or hair or what ever they, white men and white women determine is of no real importance. Go ahead and wave that massive privilege around like it is a tinny pink phallic symbol.
RX, referring to another commenter as the "banality of evil" does not add anything to the conversation. Bigfudge seems to be suggesting that the use of these ugly terms is a hoax. Of course, even if it is a hoax, someone still had to dream them up. Countering the extremism of trans activists with our own extremism is a losing tactic. Our side -- the side of reason and logic -- must be careful to remain so, and to not degenerate into name-calling.
That’s not true. Men don’t have a cervix and can’t get cervical cancer. So why is a charity for cervical cancer catering to trans people. I don’t appreciate men who are focused on their own butts trying out derogatory terms about a vagina. How puerile. I also can’t see what you are arguing about or even why you are here in this discussion? Do you have a cervix or a vagina? If not butt out!
What? Does that make it better?? Besides , nobody is non- binary! That’s a fiction. Also, ironically these demented people don’t think there is a binary…so how can there logically be a non-binary? Yeah, I know, logic is white supremacist thinking, so they just go with “feeling”! Insane!
I agree we need to uphold some basic principles of debate. I still don’t understand the original insult, beyond further evidence that Godwins law is alive and kicking.
But we should remember that the hoax is being perpetuated by right wing culture warriors in the uk press, less trans activists.
What seems most likely here is that some people are confused about what they should call their own body parts. Other kind and well meaning people have tried to accommodate that confusion. The terms that have arisen from this exchange are perhaps somewhat pornified because of the mysoginist culture we live in — and are regrettable. Nobody, though, seems bent on denying women the right to call vaginas vaginas, which was the point of this article. A
Do some research and then see whether you think it's a simple matter of some people being confused and other kind and well-meaning people trying to accommodate them. That describes the trans community thirty years ago. It's a very very different picture now, and women are being told what to call ourselves and our body parts by men in garish drag on Twitter.
I did do some research and looked up the bullshit Daily Mail story and the original source it was based on. I've also checked the source you quoted. Neither supported the conclusion drawn by Julie in this article.
I don't doubt there are batshit crazy people on the internet saying all sorts of stupid things. But we can ignore them right? The worry would be that this is actually sneaking into recommendations from professional bodies, or that clinicians are _actually_ calling women's vaginas front holes. Is there any evidence of that? I can't see any, despite an (admittedly brief) read around of what seems like the relevant material.
I would be really concerned if this was actually the case, but there are so many genuinely shitty things happening in the world (and especially to women and girls) that manufacturing this kind of anxiety seems effort misplaced — and actually likely to be counterproductive. On the basis of the discussion it feels like Julie Bindel and the Daily Mail are conspiring to manufacture outrage. Julie may be motivated by other (real) harms perpetuated by men and extremists in the trans community (the categories overlap), but to me it's sad, and makes me less likely to be persuaded by arguments presented here than I was before.
"speak gaslighting"? I'm not even sure what you are saying. But telling me that I am part of the problem because I think that name-calling doesn't contribute to the discussion is pretty bizarre. You've got problems. Bigfudge isn't the problem here, and neither am I.
Trans ideologists are pushing themselves and their intact peni into women's spaces, both literally in prisons and sports etc., and figuratively, via language. It is real. It is happening in astonishing places like women's health clinics. Questioning that this is happening could be seen as a form of gaslighting.
I tend to agree with these views. Under no circumstances do I wish for any of the trans individuals to be persecuted, discriminated against, shamed etc but if this small group of biological males are hellbent on erasing what tiny authenticity we females have, I’ll fight them tooth and nails!
Yes yes yes! This is not “progress” or “inclusion” we are literally being defined as the “other.” Bonus holes, non-men etc alienate women and only see us in the eyes of men.
My university installed free pads and tampons in the restrooms recently - which is great. Out of curiosity I peaked in the men’s while campus was empty and saw it also had a dispenser for free menstruation products. It’s absurd. It feeds into this delusion that “anyone can menstruate.” Also, the plan kept getting delayed because of budget issues - well obviously if you just cut the number of dispensers needed we could have had this resource available for WOMEN years ago! Nonsensical.
It's bizarre - it suggests that the anus is the standard "hole", with the vagina being... what, luck of the draw? Optional extra? I'm delighted that I can not fathom how these people think.
As I've commented above, there is a danger this article/thread is descending into a similar behaviour — but in this case reacting to right-wing propaganda in the Mail without checking what was actually said.
They are encouraging this language in women's spaces/domains. So, yes, they are part of it. That is actually where I came from on this issue. It was seeing the women saying men can birth and wanting to use chestfeeding etc. that got my attention initially. While it is a sad hatred of themselves they are very much part of the problem.
Has anyone read the French feminist Luce Irigaray who wrote ‘this sex which is not one’ amongst other things? I read it at Uni and it was specifically about countering psychoanalytic renderings of female as lack (hole/nothing/gaping emptiness) and did a whole thing about re-presenting the vulva (probably) as lips that touch continuously. Sort of in the area feminine ecriture (and now dismissed as essentialist - I’m going to have to go back over that. Am sure I’ve read liz grosz and butler talking about necessity of essentialism or something like that). Whoever calls the vagina a hole should be thrown into a real void!
"Bonus Hole" means that the vagina is secondary to the asshole for penile insertion. Trans ID women who use this word to describe themselves are seriously trying to convince men that they are actually gay men because they want butthole sex, but if the dick wanders it's a plus.
The story that I read was that the cervical cancer center was advising their practictioners that the transmen patients may prefer this dumbass terminology. In this case I don't think that trans ID males have anything to do with the demand.
Oh dear Julie. I notice that some deeply women hating men have crept into your comments section. The right-wing misogynist's have discovered you, it seems.
While I agree with much of what you e written, I think the misogyny argument, while focusing on a real concern, largely addresses a symptom instead of the disease. The primary battle is one between those arguing for personal or subject reality over objective reality. The apparent misogyny of Transgenderism is more obvious because women desire their own private spaces for reasons largely based on physical strength whereas on the male side hardly anyone cares what “trans men” do because they do not present a threat. The real battle is more Orwellian. It’s agains those who would seek to use language as a means of advancing their political agenda in order to control society.
Actually, it is written into UK law that women identifying as men or "transmen" are still to be excluded from upper class male spaces (the old boys clubs, boodles etc), and denied the benefits of primogeniture. So the female oldest child of an Earl cannot inherit his title by "identifying" as a man or getting a fake penis sewn on. The law forbids it. But a man can put on a wig and dress and go into a woman's prison, woman's rape crisis support group, play woman's sports etc. Misogyny is not the symptom: it's the disease.
Ok. I had been wondering about that and you just answered it. Dashed my hopes of self identifying as a man and gatecrashing some ‘ gentlemen’ only clubs. Nothing touches them eh?
Totally agree with all your points.I regard trans men to women the final attempt to colonise our bodies...taken everything else so why not take our body form too?Unaware of this bastardisation and started to giggle before I realised They are SERIOUS.
If we are being brutally honest here, is this not the unintended consequences of the feminist revolution? The ground work was laid by feminist ideology for this insane adoption of trans activism to take hold. When the foundation for your entire theory is to lay waste to biological essentialism that claims no fundamental differences between men and women, radical viewpoints will ultimately find a hospitable landscape to grow. It’s time we start contending with the fact that the road to gender equality is not without some very negative effects for both women and men. They only way through this mess is by engaging in some extreme truth telling and rethinking what is really best for the majority of women and the majority of men. Pandering to a subset of outliers other than ensuring basic human rights are upheld is deranging Western society.
Idk who's "feminism" this was that idiots always like to bring up but I know it was never mine or the women I worked with/followed. We were about centering women, mothers and our children, liberation from the patriarchal BS; not "equal to men," because anyone can see we are superior. We created everyone and everything ffs!
Pinwheel I’m taking your post as a complete wind up and joke because it is so ridiculous that to read it in any other vein gives it more consideration than it deserves.
Ah no. This is the backlash against feminism. Misogyny strikes back. And a lot of it is being funded by American male billionaires with close links to the American deep state like Piere Omidyar, Bill Gates and George Soros' open foundation.
Misogyny doesn't need funding from George Soros. Misogyny is like bedbugs. It resists all attempts at eradication. Paranoid conspiracy theories are better when they are at least somewhat credible.
Not a conspiracy theory. It’s people thinking that conspiracy does not exist that allows it to breed unchecked. No one is paranoid about this. Just look at how fast all of this has become law. All over the Wesyern world. And without any debate in the public arena whatsoever.
I agree. But in my country (New Zealand) where the government has written this stuff into law stealthily behind New Zealander's backs while we were distracted by covid, the woman who was prime minister at the time brags about doing more to advance the WEF's 2030 agenda than any other WEF young leader. It's not a conspiracy theory: the speech is available to watch on the internet. The public face of the trans ideology in New Zealand, an immigrant by the name of Shaneel Lal has a charitable trust which receives funding from the Bill Gates foundation, the Open Society foundation (ie George Soros) and directly from Pier Omidyar. He acknowledges that this is where his money comes from on his linked in profile.
Yes, misogyny is like bedbugs. Yes it resists all attempts at eradication. But this particular misogynistic backlash against women's rights IS astroturfed, and it is being funded by American billionaires with close ties to the American deep state. It's not a conspiracy theory: it's just a fact.
It’s a shame that left and right wing don’t really mean anything these days... I identify as left wing but some of my beliefs (factual ones) are regarded as right wing (the T word). Some of the feminism I rejected as a student is making more sense these days. Not all of us have time to fact check every piece of information, and I’m not feeding trolls. Othering of female sex and what flows from it, which is what JB is focused on, remains an issue regardless.
I can see comments here that 'bonus hole' was a hoax - well glad to read that, if so. I do not doubt that there are agents provocateurs fuelling this fight. That said, the use of 'front hole' by trans identified men or women is common as far as I can see on social media .... as is 'suck my girl dick'.
Julie - you're right of course - if the b hole thing was a hoax that proves it even more imho
As a biological psychologist, and a fellow human being, I completely agree that "the bastardisation of language" to describe female bodies is misogyny. And, I find the term to which you refer here as particularly vulgar. Thank you for your principled, thoughtful essay. Sincerely, Frederick
It would be thoughtful had Julie bothered to check the original source. I actually think a clarification is warranted.
Interesting. Julie appears to have deleted my comment which included a link to a fact checking website which pointed out this story was culture war froth from the Mail and essentially untrue. Nobody is recommending health professionals call vaginas front holes.
Look if you don’t like her writing, why are you even here? Maybe you should find some other platform to start finding fault with women and their opinions. And by the way there are many MANY highly paid groups doing just that - changing language and definitions of women and our body parts to dehumanise us and cause cognitive dissonance within society. Including health professionals. So why why don’t you do some fact checking of your own.
I’m here because I do/did find her writing interesting and it provided me - straight, white middle aged man - with a perspective I didn’t otherwise have. I’m posting because I care about understanding the issues and value good debate, not because I’m trying to gaslight anyone.
If you want this comment section to be an echo chamber of people who don’t care about whether the stories are true, provided they fit the narrative, that’s fine I guess. But it makes me sad because it will make radical feminism less persuasive and effective, because people outside but sympathetic to these ideas will worry that you don’t care about getting stuff right. This community will be dragged down to the level of the right wing trolls and trans extremists who generated this story in the first place.
I acknowledge my privilege, but the response here to honest questions from a sympathetic and interested observer has been pretty hostile. That might be something to reflect on if you’re interested in changing minds or making change. I’m really interested in examples of mainstream groups forcing women to adopt new terms or campaigning for that but just can’t find any. If it’s so pervasive perhaps someone would post a link rather than questioning my motives?
Men fuck up everything they touch.
The changes in language are widespread and happening everywhere. Everyone sees this.
Go play video games and shut up.
Bigfudge is right. A s a radfem myself, its important to get the facts straight like the great feminists who came before me. Those women acted not on reflex but through deep thought and fact gathering. A falsehood is a falsehood. While it is true that there IS language being invented by the trans community to change how we label ourselves, its also important to point out exactly when and how thats happening.
Also to the woman in here shitting on guys for having a say, check yourself. There are misogynists and there are men just to trying to be supportive..nothing this man said here made me think he was mocking the author of this article or women. He simply wanted to get the facts straight so he could understand the clear picture. Thats what we want men to do, isn't it?
I’m not sure what that means here. Julie has deleted another link to a fact check website link highlighting that this is a manufactured story.
It’s possible to think both that there is real misogyny afoot and that the concern here is misplaced.
If you read the guidance that this story is based on it’s clear that it’s about respecting individuals’ preferences about what to call their vagina, not general guidance to adopt a new term. You and I might think wanting to avoid the word vagina is misguided, but this is not about imposing new terms on women.
While it looks like the "front hole" thing was overstated, A LGBTQIA safe sex guide published by Healthline used both the terms "vagina" and "front hole."
Beyond that error, the larger concerns remain. Not for you, perhaps, from your privileged perches.
Women ARE being referred to as "menstruators" (I won't go into the obvious ironies inherent to that word). https://duckduckgo.com/?q=menstruators&t=ffab&atb=v373-1&ia=news&iar=news
And chest-feeders.https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chest+feeding+&t=ffab&atb=v373-1&ia=web
In an effort to be inclusive of a tiny minority, women are being erased as a class. This is misogyny.
I have yet to hear of health efforts directed at reaching "people who ejaculate". Or "people with penises".
When that happens, I'll stop complaining about women being erased.
It's interesting to look at where this is coming from and what people actually say/recommend. The BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth paper that the healthline guides cites as an authority actually recommends this:
> Reflect the language patients use to describe their reproductive organs and bodies (e.g., chest feeding rather than breast feeding; or “front hole” instead of vagina)
From the context, it's clear this is not recommending these terms for mainstream use but rather to respect individual patient preferences. This is much more akin to the case when people request different pronouns. If someone wants to call their vagina a front hole or say they are chest feeding rather than breastfeeding we might agree that they are misguided. We might also try to persuade people that this is part of a wider mysogynistic discourse or a form of self-hate. But it's not clear to me that it is mysogynist to respect individuals' preferences in an specific clinical encounter.
> Not for you, perhaps, from your privileged perches.
This is so gratuitous and unnecessary. Men are also victims of our current dysfunctional public discourses on gender. I am father to teenage children (girl and boy) and I'm deeply concerned for their futures. For my daughter that she will be respected and her female identify fully acknowledged, right to safe spaces protected etc. For my son, that I can shield him from horrendous, pornified corporate culture and help him build a positive, ethical identity as a man in a culture which makes that very hard.
But for both of them I wish for a future where people have a concern for evidence and fair dealing in our public discourse. Deleting clarifications or questions about an article is part of the problem. Taking the bait of trolls in the right wing press is also a big problem because it poisons the well and makes important arguments around protecting female identity less persuasive.
You're not going to reach people or help them understand with this giant chip on your shoulder. Talking down to someone by saying they couldnt possibly understand a concept from their "privileged perches" is not the way to get them to listen. We don't like when men talk down to us and condescend us, we shoudlnt do the same..simply because it gets us nowhere. Think of all the women you represent when you talk this way.
Thanks for the links. I can’t see much in those searches that isn’t a Daily Mail or Fox News story, so I suspect we’re not going to learn a lot from them about what medical professionals actually do in practice.
People with penises are a thing though, apparently! https://www.teenhealthcare.org/blog/8-terms-we-avoid-and-what-we-use-instead/
It was news to me. I doubt you’re going to hear much about it though because it isn’t quite as good for stoking a culture war.
When I do a google of front hole google states and I quote" Front hole – An alternative word for the vagina preferred by some trans men and/or non-binary people with a cervix. It is important to check which words someone would prefer to use." Which is then linked to a Cervix Cancer web site that goes on to talk about language matters to everyone but women born with one and sees accepting that as ok.
Not a hoax https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/11/vagina-bonus-hole-charity/
Did you read that article? All it adds to this is confirmation that this was always about allowing trans men to use whatever terms they like, rather than guidance for terms to use with women.
The story as written in the mail is still incredibly dishonest and misleading, and so this article likewise unhelpful. Hoax is perhaps too strong, but “bullshit” (writing without regard for truth) is still apt.
There are so many things to be legitimately angry about, the effort to fabricate outrage about this seems weird to me. Trans men have cervixes and need medical care. Some of them might want to say they no longer have a vagina — and in fact their personal rejection of their gender at birth is why they are a trans man, so it’s hardly surprising. That they use different words for body parts and medical professionals who want to support them go along with that doesn’t constitute erasure of identity for all women.
I find it bizarre that there is a concerted effort to coddle people who don't like the words for their biological bits. You can't change from a man to a woman or a woman to a man: it's psychically impossible. You can cut up your body, get rid of things, add things, etc. but that does not result in a transition to the opposite sex. It results in scar tissue.
Trans men have vaginas. End of sentence. If they can't speak the word "vagina" what they need is therapy, not medical professionals buttressing their mental illness.
I guess that's a position someone could hold. I don't agree with the premise that trans men aren't different in important ways from both women and men, or that they couldn't reasonably have preferences about how they address bits of their body. No doubt therapy would be helpful for many people who are unhappy with their gender — but I'm not sure either of us are qualified to judge what is right for the relatively few individuals who go down this path. Although there are extremists and mysoginists in the trans community, that isn't incompatible with the idea that there are also good people who are making a difficult journey. However misguided you think it is, kindness and empathy should be our starting point, rather than stereotyping all trans people as self-hating, mysoginist, reality-deniers, which is where this debate seems to be heading.
But — all this is a completely different discussion from the one we started with: namely, that trans lunacy was erasing women's identity by requiring everyone to call vaginas bonus holes. That just isn't true and obscures much more important debates around real threats to safe spaces, prison sentencing guidelines etc.
This blog and others are themselves quite extreme. I really worry that there is an ecosystem developing whereby (to use shorthand) we get a symbiosis of extreme positions on either side to build audiences, drive traffic. Here there are at least 3 extremes feeding off each other:
1. The Mail and the Telegraph, who want to stoke culture war arguments because the Tories are so incompetent it's their best chance of retaining power.
2. Radical feminists like Julie (and I would myself on this "wing", if any), who read rehash stupid articles like this from the mail to score points against pro-trans extremists, and
3. Trans extremists, who will no doubt use comments like yours to write outraged pieces about how radical feminists stereotype and stigmatise people with gender identity issues, and further motivate attempts to capture professional bodies etc. Unthinking aggression towards individual trans people like yours is grist for the mill, and makes it harder to engage those communities about genuine concerns like over safe spaces, rape centres etc.
The comments on this blog from people who read Julie's article uncritically and launched into totally unjustified speculation that "vagina" and "breastfeeding" were threatened terms are part of the problem, and make me sad because it shows how far we've fallen... Nobody will listen to arguments from radical feminists if the community is suckered into engaging with obvious bullshit like this — and that's a real problem.
Again a white man telling women what they should really be worried about as if he the white man has NO control over any of those issues. This is funny. No one knows better what women should fear and do fear than a white man.
You're right, of course. It's unfortunate that we're not all self-actualized, enlightened beings who can discourse calmly while the earth burns up and trans activists shriek on Twitter that being misgendered is literally killing them. But we don't live in an age of listening. We live in an age of shouting.
It's too bad, is what it is.
I love it when men or yes even white women step into an area and inform the underlings there is more to be concerned about than words or hair or what ever they, white men and white women determine is of no real importance. Go ahead and wave that massive privilege around like it is a tinny pink phallic symbol.
RX, referring to another commenter as the "banality of evil" does not add anything to the conversation. Bigfudge seems to be suggesting that the use of these ugly terms is a hoax. Of course, even if it is a hoax, someone still had to dream them up. Countering the extremism of trans activists with our own extremism is a losing tactic. Our side -- the side of reason and logic -- must be careful to remain so, and to not degenerate into name-calling.
Not a hoax https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/11/vagina-bonus-hole-charity/
Well, that article says that the offensive terms are intended only to be used on trans and non-binary people, not on women.
That’s not true. Men don’t have a cervix and can’t get cervical cancer. So why is a charity for cervical cancer catering to trans people. I don’t appreciate men who are focused on their own butts trying out derogatory terms about a vagina. How puerile. I also can’t see what you are arguing about or even why you are here in this discussion? Do you have a cervix or a vagina? If not butt out!
What? Does that make it better?? Besides , nobody is non- binary! That’s a fiction. Also, ironically these demented people don’t think there is a binary…so how can there logically be a non-binary? Yeah, I know, logic is white supremacist thinking, so they just go with “feeling”! Insane!
I agree we need to uphold some basic principles of debate. I still don’t understand the original insult, beyond further evidence that Godwins law is alive and kicking.
But we should remember that the hoax is being perpetuated by right wing culture warriors in the uk press, less trans activists.
What seems most likely here is that some people are confused about what they should call their own body parts. Other kind and well meaning people have tried to accommodate that confusion. The terms that have arisen from this exchange are perhaps somewhat pornified because of the mysoginist culture we live in — and are regrettable. Nobody, though, seems bent on denying women the right to call vaginas vaginas, which was the point of this article. A
Do some research and then see whether you think it's a simple matter of some people being confused and other kind and well-meaning people trying to accommodate them. That describes the trans community thirty years ago. It's a very very different picture now, and women are being told what to call ourselves and our body parts by men in garish drag on Twitter.
I did do some research and looked up the bullshit Daily Mail story and the original source it was based on. I've also checked the source you quoted. Neither supported the conclusion drawn by Julie in this article.
I don't doubt there are batshit crazy people on the internet saying all sorts of stupid things. But we can ignore them right? The worry would be that this is actually sneaking into recommendations from professional bodies, or that clinicians are _actually_ calling women's vaginas front holes. Is there any evidence of that? I can't see any, despite an (admittedly brief) read around of what seems like the relevant material.
I would be really concerned if this was actually the case, but there are so many genuinely shitty things happening in the world (and especially to women and girls) that manufacturing this kind of anxiety seems effort misplaced — and actually likely to be counterproductive. On the basis of the discussion it feels like Julie Bindel and the Daily Mail are conspiring to manufacture outrage. Julie may be motivated by other (real) harms perpetuated by men and extremists in the trans community (the categories overlap), but to me it's sad, and makes me less likely to be persuaded by arguments presented here than I was before.
"speak gaslighting"? I'm not even sure what you are saying. But telling me that I am part of the problem because I think that name-calling doesn't contribute to the discussion is pretty bizarre. You've got problems. Bigfudge isn't the problem here, and neither am I.
Trans ideologists are pushing themselves and their intact peni into women's spaces, both literally in prisons and sports etc., and figuratively, via language. It is real. It is happening in astonishing places like women's health clinics. Questioning that this is happening could be seen as a form of gaslighting.
I tend to agree with these views. Under no circumstances do I wish for any of the trans individuals to be persecuted, discriminated against, shamed etc but if this small group of biological males are hellbent on erasing what tiny authenticity we females have, I’ll fight them tooth and nails!
That’s my AM dose!
🐾🤗🐾
Yes yes yes! This is not “progress” or “inclusion” we are literally being defined as the “other.” Bonus holes, non-men etc alienate women and only see us in the eyes of men.
My university installed free pads and tampons in the restrooms recently - which is great. Out of curiosity I peaked in the men’s while campus was empty and saw it also had a dispenser for free menstruation products. It’s absurd. It feeds into this delusion that “anyone can menstruate.” Also, the plan kept getting delayed because of budget issues - well obviously if you just cut the number of dispensers needed we could have had this resource available for WOMEN years ago! Nonsensical.
I don't get this. At one point, we were 51% of the world's population. Who would define us using men as the standard?
Bonus hole is an offensive term. And it's not a "bonus" if it's completely normal.
It's bizarre - it suggests that the anus is the standard "hole", with the vagina being... what, luck of the draw? Optional extra? I'm delighted that I can not fathom how these people think.
Because they're not "thinking". What they're doing is not thinking. It's reacting. It's regurgitating propaganda.
As I've commented above, there is a danger this article/thread is descending into a similar behaviour — but in this case reacting to right-wing propaganda in the Mail without checking what was actually said.
That's why I'm delighted I can't get into their heads!
I don't see transmen attacking women; this is a male movement and we must keep pushing back and sharing - thanks JB, your words say it best.
They are encouraging this language in women's spaces/domains. So, yes, they are part of it. That is actually where I came from on this issue. It was seeing the women saying men can birth and wanting to use chestfeeding etc. that got my attention initially. While it is a sad hatred of themselves they are very much part of the problem.
Has anyone read the French feminist Luce Irigaray who wrote ‘this sex which is not one’ amongst other things? I read it at Uni and it was specifically about countering psychoanalytic renderings of female as lack (hole/nothing/gaping emptiness) and did a whole thing about re-presenting the vulva (probably) as lips that touch continuously. Sort of in the area feminine ecriture (and now dismissed as essentialist - I’m going to have to go back over that. Am sure I’ve read liz grosz and butler talking about necessity of essentialism or something like that). Whoever calls the vagina a hole should be thrown into a real void!
“Front hole?” Either my vagina is in the wrong place or someone needs a refresher on female anatomy….
"Bonus Hole" means that the vagina is secondary to the asshole for penile insertion. Trans ID women who use this word to describe themselves are seriously trying to convince men that they are actually gay men because they want butthole sex, but if the dick wanders it's a plus.
The story that I read was that the cervical cancer center was advising their practictioners that the transmen patients may prefer this dumbass terminology. In this case I don't think that trans ID males have anything to do with the demand.
What about the life course costs of being a woman - the pill, pads/tampons/period pants/moon cups then HRfuckinT
Oh dear Julie. I notice that some deeply women hating men have crept into your comments section. The right-wing misogynist's have discovered you, it seems.
While I agree with much of what you e written, I think the misogyny argument, while focusing on a real concern, largely addresses a symptom instead of the disease. The primary battle is one between those arguing for personal or subject reality over objective reality. The apparent misogyny of Transgenderism is more obvious because women desire their own private spaces for reasons largely based on physical strength whereas on the male side hardly anyone cares what “trans men” do because they do not present a threat. The real battle is more Orwellian. It’s agains those who would seek to use language as a means of advancing their political agenda in order to control society.
Actually, it is written into UK law that women identifying as men or "transmen" are still to be excluded from upper class male spaces (the old boys clubs, boodles etc), and denied the benefits of primogeniture. So the female oldest child of an Earl cannot inherit his title by "identifying" as a man or getting a fake penis sewn on. The law forbids it. But a man can put on a wig and dress and go into a woman's prison, woman's rape crisis support group, play woman's sports etc. Misogyny is not the symptom: it's the disease.
Ok. I had been wondering about that and you just answered it. Dashed my hopes of self identifying as a man and gatecrashing some ‘ gentlemen’ only clubs. Nothing touches them eh?
Yes I understand @Philip .... I'm not sure which I despise more, the misogyny or the irrationality - don't ask me to choose!
Totally agree with all your points.I regard trans men to women the final attempt to colonise our bodies...taken everything else so why not take our body form too?Unaware of this bastardisation and started to giggle before I realised They are SERIOUS.
“Front hole?” Either my vagina is in the wrong place or someone needs a refresher on female anatomy….
If we are being brutally honest here, is this not the unintended consequences of the feminist revolution? The ground work was laid by feminist ideology for this insane adoption of trans activism to take hold. When the foundation for your entire theory is to lay waste to biological essentialism that claims no fundamental differences between men and women, radical viewpoints will ultimately find a hospitable landscape to grow. It’s time we start contending with the fact that the road to gender equality is not without some very negative effects for both women and men. They only way through this mess is by engaging in some extreme truth telling and rethinking what is really best for the majority of women and the majority of men. Pandering to a subset of outliers other than ensuring basic human rights are upheld is deranging Western society.
Idk who's "feminism" this was that idiots always like to bring up but I know it was never mine or the women I worked with/followed. We were about centering women, mothers and our children, liberation from the patriarchal BS; not "equal to men," because anyone can see we are superior. We created everyone and everything ffs!
Pinwheel I’m taking your post as a complete wind up and joke because it is so ridiculous that to read it in any other vein gives it more consideration than it deserves.
I'm taking *your* post as a complete wind up!
Your post is a laugh-riot. I assume you are being satirical.
Ah no. This is the backlash against feminism. Misogyny strikes back. And a lot of it is being funded by American male billionaires with close links to the American deep state like Piere Omidyar, Bill Gates and George Soros' open foundation.
Misogyny doesn't need funding from George Soros. Misogyny is like bedbugs. It resists all attempts at eradication. Paranoid conspiracy theories are better when they are at least somewhat credible.
Not a conspiracy theory. It’s people thinking that conspiracy does not exist that allows it to breed unchecked. No one is paranoid about this. Just look at how fast all of this has become law. All over the Wesyern world. And without any debate in the public arena whatsoever.
That's not conspiracy: that's social contagion.
Ever heard of the Tulip mania that gripped Amsterdam in the 17th century?
I agree. But in my country (New Zealand) where the government has written this stuff into law stealthily behind New Zealander's backs while we were distracted by covid, the woman who was prime minister at the time brags about doing more to advance the WEF's 2030 agenda than any other WEF young leader. It's not a conspiracy theory: the speech is available to watch on the internet. The public face of the trans ideology in New Zealand, an immigrant by the name of Shaneel Lal has a charitable trust which receives funding from the Bill Gates foundation, the Open Society foundation (ie George Soros) and directly from Pier Omidyar. He acknowledges that this is where his money comes from on his linked in profile.
Yes, misogyny is like bedbugs. Yes it resists all attempts at eradication. But this particular misogynistic backlash against women's rights IS astroturfed, and it is being funded by American billionaires with close ties to the American deep state. It's not a conspiracy theory: it's just a fact.
So, where on Shaneel Lal's Linked-in page is this acknowledgement? I can't find it.
Well said 👍
The fact your post got any likes is deeply disturbing. That’s some serious tin foil hat thinking....it infects all corners of the web.
haha ... I wasn't gonna give it a like but now im considering!
It’s a shame that left and right wing don’t really mean anything these days... I identify as left wing but some of my beliefs (factual ones) are regarded as right wing (the T word). Some of the feminism I rejected as a student is making more sense these days. Not all of us have time to fact check every piece of information, and I’m not feeding trolls. Othering of female sex and what flows from it, which is what JB is focused on, remains an issue regardless.
I can see comments here that 'bonus hole' was a hoax - well glad to read that, if so. I do not doubt that there are agents provocateurs fuelling this fight. That said, the use of 'front hole' by trans identified men or women is common as far as I can see on social media .... as is 'suck my girl dick'.
Julie - you're right of course - if the b hole thing was a hoax that proves it even more imho