I agree we need to uphold some basic principles of debate. I still don’t understand the original insult, beyond further evidence that Godwins law is alive and kicking.
But we should remember that the hoax is being perpetuated by right wing culture warriors in the uk press, less trans activists.
I agree we need to uphold some basic principles of debate. I still don’t understand the original insult, beyond further evidence that Godwins law is alive and kicking.
But we should remember that the hoax is being perpetuated by right wing culture warriors in the uk press, less trans activists.
What seems most likely here is that some people are confused about what they should call their own body parts. Other kind and well meaning people have tried to accommodate that confusion. The terms that have arisen from this exchange are perhaps somewhat pornified because of the mysoginist culture we live in — and are regrettable. Nobody, though, seems bent on denying women the right to call vaginas vaginas, which was the point of this article. A
I did do some research and looked up the bullshit Daily Mail story and the original source it was based on. I've also checked the source you quoted. Neither supported the conclusion drawn by Julie in this article.
I don't doubt there are batshit crazy people on the internet saying all sorts of stupid things. But we can ignore them right? The worry would be that this is actually sneaking into recommendations from professional bodies, or that clinicians are _actually_ calling women's vaginas front holes. Is there any evidence of that? I can't see any, despite an (admittedly brief) read around of what seems like the relevant material.
I would be really concerned if this was actually the case, but there are so many genuinely shitty things happening in the world (and especially to women and girls) that manufacturing this kind of anxiety seems effort misplaced — and actually likely to be counterproductive. On the basis of the discussion it feels like Julie Bindel and the Daily Mail are conspiring to manufacture outrage. Julie may be motivated by other (real) harms perpetuated by men and extremists in the trans community (the categories overlap), but to me it's sad, and makes me less likely to be persuaded by arguments presented here than I was before.
Have you seen the transactivist language for body parts advocated within the NHS? "Vagina" certainly wouldn't be allowed there, because it's "exclusionary" of trans-identified males.
No I haven't. Advocated by who? I'm genuinely interested... do you have any links to professional bodies or other sensible people saying that "vagina" is trans-exclusionary?
And are you really saying that NHS professionals can't currently say vagina? I have just spoken to a nurse who leads the ED team in the local hospital and she had never heard of anything like this (or even the term "front hole").
I haven't seen any examples myself but I can imagine there are extremists/trolls on Twitter, or from the nuttier charities saying that kind of thing. But everything I have seen (e.g. from charities) has never suggested that we stop using that word for women generally — rather that some people (i.e. patients who are trans men) might prefer other terms, so professionals should be be aware of that.
Is it possible that you are conflating crazy arguments from trans extremists who will never be taken seriously by any health professionals with actual practice or guidance?
In what capacity and how? Do you have examples which aren’t daily mail stories. I don’t doubt there is stupid stuff happening, in just really interested in how. In my limited experience, people are sometimes made anxious and defer to trans activist groups through lack of confidence and a general aim to be accommodating — but I’ve not seen anything which makes me think anyone outside humanities departments or activist groups actually believes this all makes sense.
I agree we need to uphold some basic principles of debate. I still don’t understand the original insult, beyond further evidence that Godwins law is alive and kicking.
But we should remember that the hoax is being perpetuated by right wing culture warriors in the uk press, less trans activists.
What seems most likely here is that some people are confused about what they should call their own body parts. Other kind and well meaning people have tried to accommodate that confusion. The terms that have arisen from this exchange are perhaps somewhat pornified because of the mysoginist culture we live in — and are regrettable. Nobody, though, seems bent on denying women the right to call vaginas vaginas, which was the point of this article. A
I did do some research and looked up the bullshit Daily Mail story and the original source it was based on. I've also checked the source you quoted. Neither supported the conclusion drawn by Julie in this article.
I don't doubt there are batshit crazy people on the internet saying all sorts of stupid things. But we can ignore them right? The worry would be that this is actually sneaking into recommendations from professional bodies, or that clinicians are _actually_ calling women's vaginas front holes. Is there any evidence of that? I can't see any, despite an (admittedly brief) read around of what seems like the relevant material.
I would be really concerned if this was actually the case, but there are so many genuinely shitty things happening in the world (and especially to women and girls) that manufacturing this kind of anxiety seems effort misplaced — and actually likely to be counterproductive. On the basis of the discussion it feels like Julie Bindel and the Daily Mail are conspiring to manufacture outrage. Julie may be motivated by other (real) harms perpetuated by men and extremists in the trans community (the categories overlap), but to me it's sad, and makes me less likely to be persuaded by arguments presented here than I was before.
Have you seen the transactivist language for body parts advocated within the NHS? "Vagina" certainly wouldn't be allowed there, because it's "exclusionary" of trans-identified males.
No I haven't. Advocated by who? I'm genuinely interested... do you have any links to professional bodies or other sensible people saying that "vagina" is trans-exclusionary?
And are you really saying that NHS professionals can't currently say vagina? I have just spoken to a nurse who leads the ED team in the local hospital and she had never heard of anything like this (or even the term "front hole").
I haven't seen any examples myself but I can imagine there are extremists/trolls on Twitter, or from the nuttier charities saying that kind of thing. But everything I have seen (e.g. from charities) has never suggested that we stop using that word for women generally — rather that some people (i.e. patients who are trans men) might prefer other terms, so professionals should be be aware of that.
Is it possible that you are conflating crazy arguments from trans extremists who will never be taken seriously by any health professionals with actual practice or guidance?
In what capacity and how? Do you have examples which aren’t daily mail stories. I don’t doubt there is stupid stuff happening, in just really interested in how. In my limited experience, people are sometimes made anxious and defer to trans activist groups through lack of confidence and a general aim to be accommodating — but I’ve not seen anything which makes me think anyone outside humanities departments or activist groups actually believes this all makes sense.
I don't see any link in the OP about the charity that supposedly used the term "bonus hole"
Julie deleted my original comment which included a link to the original source and a fact check website. Is that what you’re referring to?
I mean no link from Julie herself