I agree it's a choice to act on attraction to other women and pursue relationships with them, but having that attraction in the first place isn't a matter of choice. You either are a lesbian if you don't have any attraction to men, or a bisexual who chooses to only be with women: I've heard the term "feb" or "febfem" - female exclusive bisexual (feminist) - used to describe that and I think it's a useful term. Straight women don't have that same desire for women in the first place, and lesbians who have no desire for men still need a word to describe themselves.
That’s a fascinating recount of Renata’s ‘choice’ and I can see how, for her, it was a choice. For me, I am uncomfortable with the notion of choice about being a lesbian. The only ‘choice’ I recognise for me (and for so many others, I believe) is choosing to live my life as a lesbian, rather than remaining not only closeted but in denial in order to survive. Coming out for me was no big deal (and I know how lucky I am) once I knew that women like me existed and we had a name. I was a lesbian, no choice about that, but I chose to live openly as a lesbian, embracing all that was to follow (this was late 70s onwards - oh what fun we had in the 80s in the UK with section 28 etc..). So, I think I’m only comfortable with choice when I know what I am choosing between - this was never a choice between men or women, it was only ever going to be women.
I wish attraction was a choice, would probably make for easier relationships. But it seems to not be and we all know that. She definitely has attraction towards women, and maybe men but I don’t know since she doesn’t talk about if she had attraction towards men.
The issue I take with this idea that woman can choose to be lesbian is the impact on lesbians themselves. I personally don’t want a bunch of women play acting same sex attraction when they are not. I don’t want women forcing themselves to have sex with other women. It really is devastating to a lesbian to have a woman pretending and not truly be into her. It’s hurtful.
It’s wrong all the way around to act like people can choose to be sexual attracted to a sex they are not.
I agree. Gays and lesbians were, by historical definition, people who were exclusively sexually attracted to the same sex. Homosexuals. For centuries, people tried to change and convert us, often resorting to hideous human rights violations in Western Nations such as institutionalizing us, shock treating us, incarcerating us, killing and beating us because we refused to breed with the opposite sex and we were different. Still happening in other non Western Nations. What I believe won the hearts and minds of people as an activist was when we rose and said “I was born this way” and that or our sexual orientation was innate. That it wasn’t a choice for us or a phase we would grow out of. Finally compassion and understanding that we could not change.
Our rights have been lost and our identities erased in many nations, including my own (Canada). “Homosexual” has been deemed an obsolete term by our government. Lesbians are not free to gather with their own kind without fear of persecution or fear of being mobbed by angry trans activists. We are no longer free to say things like we believe sex is binary and immutable or we don’t think trans women are women without getting sued or charged with hate speech. While the UK 🇬🇧 is fighting hard to maintain women’s and homosexual rights, appreciate Sall Grover just lost her case in Australia 🇦🇺 in Federal Court at a cost of $1.2M and rising to defend having to be sued for not allowing a biological male to use a female only app.
So for anyone to say that our legal definitions and sex doesn’t matter, think again. Our rights as homosexuals are under attack. As are women’s rights when we any male can declare themselves a woman.
I very much appreciated Renata’s joyful account of her lesbian existence and envy the close and loving relationship she enjoys with Susan, who I find an absolute treasure working with in our joint feminist activist commitments I, too, have a (now) critical science background that veered off into feminism. I am proud to say I *chose* lesbian existence, am uninterested in debating the genetics of homosexuality because my research has shown me that’s a dead end. So I reject ‘born this way’ debates and patronising ‘it’s OK to be bisexual’ comments because I don’t need such ideas to justify my lesbianism; it’s simply a joy to be part of a supportive feminist lesbian culture that is accepting and giving and challenging and the source of deep friendships and love. And, of course, we know what a woman is and celebrate all our many creative and positive attributes.
I don't think it's a matter of justifying it, rather a matter of having clear definitions of what a lesbian is and what we mean by that word, just as we need a clear definition of what a woman is. Some women have no attraction to men whatsoever and have only ever been attracted to women, and some are attracted to both but choose to only be with women, and those are different things. There's no judgement in saying it's okay to be bisexual - I'm a bisexual myself, and we do have a lot in common with lesbians, mostly we're assumed to be lesbian and treated as such if we're in same sex relationships, but it is a different experience and we should be proud of that and not take words from lesbians who already have men and straight women encroaching on their spaces without us doing it.
Well put. Thank you for acknowledging that as a bisexual. There is a difference between lesbians, bisexual and heterosexual women. My predisposition to be strongly and exclusively sexually attracted to females is innate. I was born this way so the only choice many of us had was whether to act on what was innate. To be in a lesbian relationship does not mean one is necessarily a lesbian. Just as being in married in a heterosexual relationship does not necessarily make one heterosexual. We just are what we are and I fail to see how it is patronizing to acknowledge our differences.
The pushback to discussing these issues isn’t just coming from conservatives. It’s also coming from trans activists and their supporters who have erased what it means to be lesbian or gay with some maintaining that biological sex is a social construct as is sexual orientation. Hugely problematic because gay and lesbian rights fall to the definition of biological sex.
Imperative we have these frank discussions because this is coming at us hard.
I accept trans IDing people feel they were born that way. I know that to be true of many I’ve known. What’s happening is that trans activists are not accepting so are we born this way and that their rights don’t get to infringe on the rights of others. So no, you can’t coerce gays and lesbians into sleeping with you or force us into accepting your belief system. And no you can’t infringe on women’s hard won rights.
We never said people had to accept us. Just give us equal rights which both homos and trans people now have. Equal rights doesn’t not mean you get to take away my rights and that’s what has been allowed to happen.
Love this story. What is it with headmistresses? Mine was rumoured to be with the sports teacher. Totally down with women who choose to be with women. I rejoice in that. My mum always described being gay as a ‘lifestyle choice’ (and not in a nice way) and I’m sure it is for some women. But I’ve never personally felt like it was a choice I could make. I just am (for whatever reason) and always have been as far back as I can remember.
Lesbians are more likely to be non-conforming and enjoy playing sport and humanities grads learn to think critically and therefore be more non conforming. Voila! There’s a pattern for lesbians to find each other. 💚🤍🤣💕💕💕
So funny. Yes, we tend to find each other quickly by signing up for humanities, especially women’s studies courses. Or on sports fields from the time we’re young. I headed there because I didn’t want to play Barbies and dress up with other girls. I’ll argue one of the reasons we see so many great lesbian athletes is many of us have been playing sports from a young age. When I felt I didn’t fit in and there wasn’t anyone to play with, I’d stand and shoot hoops alone for hours each day or bash tennis balls against a wall. Is it any wonder that when Martina came along it was like 😳, good Christ, what a serve! Or when we watch lesbian 🏀 players sink it repeatedly, I’m like that’s a lesbo who stood shooting baskets until they got every shot. By age 12, I could sink it past center court. And when I discovered all the cheerleaders (usually pretty girls) and I’d start to play for them. Until, most regrettably, I’d be benched for showing off. That really sucked.
Also we lesbians are less vulnerable to seeking or needing male approval & thus freer to play sports. 🏀 This explains in part why the All American Girls Pro Baseball League, Women’s Pro Basketball League (first US) and even current US soccer & b’ball teams are lesbian-heavy, so to speak.
Years ago I was on roster at Lesbian Line in South Australia. The phone rang and it was two women of quite senior years, one of them in the background giggling. They had read an article in the newspaper that day and decided to phone us to find out if they were lesbians. They hadn’t known the word. They asked me “What do lesbians do?” My mouth opened and I said “we do a lot of gardening”. So they told me about their garden first. A lifetime together and now a word to describe themselves.
It's interesting to see many commenters rely on a rigid biologically deterministic, static and ahistorical concept of sexuality. I do not support such beliefs.
Like many others in the 70s and 80s, I came to lesbianism with a sense of choice through my feminist political activism and understanding of feminist theory. A standout out text was Audre Lord's text 'Compulsory Heterosexuality'. What a gift for women like myself who had never questioned our het identity. So, too, have Mary Daly's texts made sense. And I benefited from feminist support to think for myself in other ways, to conform less to all sorts of stereotypes in my behariour and beliefs. That includes benefiting from the non-conformity of many lesbians who have known they are lesbian from an early age. I needed lesbian feminism--to state i am a lesbian, to leave my second marriage, to live in a share house with other lesbian friends both new and already in my life. and to discover my unfolding sexual desire for other women.
I have remained committed to lesbian be-ing and politics since then. And I wasn't alone, though some have returned to relating to men and bisexuality. Many other women like myself underwent radical transformation to be-ing Lesbian, an ontological understanding of 'lesbian as an active state, a verb, that is beyond the authority of the Father or of a Male God.
For a definition of lesbian I turn to Mary Daly's words where be-ing refers to 'actual participation in the Ultimate/Intimate Reality--Be-ing, the Verb,' 'the Final Cause, the Good who is self-communicating, who is the Verb from whom, in whom, and with whom all true movements move.' ('Wickedary' cited in 'Outercourse. The Bedazzling Voyage', 1992, p.158). Her use of familiar Christian language in radically non-conforming way is a sign of her 'amazing' struggles to break free from a patriarchal religious upbringing and earlier commitments as an adult. I continue to admire her courage and bold ideas and am still attached to a dynamic political truth of lesbian be-ing.
I read Mary Daly's Gyn/Ecology and Pure Lust almost 40 years ago, in college (well -- while in college, not "for" college), and I can count on one hand how many times I've heard her mentioned since. I wish you could see the smile on my face when I read your comment!! Thanks!
My click for lesbian feminism was Adrienne Rich’s ‘Compulsory Heterosexuality’. An earlier click for feminism is harder to ID but probably Mary Daly’s ‘Gyn/ecology’ a couple of years earlier. I was fortunate to have been reading these while able to talk (hesitantly) with radical feminists.
I stumbled onto the radical second-wave feminists while browsing in the public library branch at age 18. I first checked out The Female Eunuch, and I then proceeded to read everything in that library section. I remember thinking, with each book, "when I finish this one, I'm not going to read any more of these. This is too depressing." But I couldn't stop! Was it Ms Magazine that described the "click" when you learn to recognize sexism? That totally happened to me with those library books.
Beautiful story from the lovely Renate Klein, who I got to know through our mutual friend, the late lamented Dale Spender, when both lived in London. Relate and Sue started Spinifex Press, back in Australia. Still going strong.
I haven't read all the comments here as I agree 'born that way' is a dead-end and disproven anyway. But I agree with Susan H. about the times we came out. A lot of the comments seem to dismiss that when a lot of us DECIDED we were lesbians, the time before we we were adolescents we'd never even heard the term. It was assumed that women growing up in the 1950s would get married - there wasn't another choice. It was the WLM that liberated us all, when we knew we could love women and be lesbians. So ageism going on here as well and a lack of knowledge of lesbian history.
That’s funny. Or we said they were too afraid to come out so they identified as bi as it was more politically correct to be seen as halfway “normal” at the time. Or that all they needed was to cross the line into lesbo land where they'd realize how great sex and life was to be us. Nothing wrong with political lesbians. They’ve been amongst us for centuries.
It’s ironic that quite a number of you are criticising Renate for using the word ‘choose’. In the time when Renate (and I) were adolescents, lesbian existence barely registered. See her comment on this in her piece. How is it possible that decades of lesbian existence and activism count for nothing. I note also that some of you mention being married to a woman. How is it that getting into the institution of marriage is the thing these days rather than getting out of it or resisting marriage as we did in our time. No one is genetically primed for sexual orientation. Big Pharma would love us to believe its like that, more profits from medicalisation for them.
I'm going to try doing a bit of philosophy as Kathleen taught me how to do when I read her book.
We need a concept that means "woman who loves women, whose romantic and sexual life revolves around women, or who spends her life partnered to a woman/women." This is a distinct concept from "exclusive female homosexual." One concept is about behavior and how one chooses to live one's life. The other concept is about innate sexual orientation, which cannot be changed.
These concepts probably overlap a majority of the time, but there are clearly many cases (like this one) where they don't overlap, and in my opinion it's detrimental to both lesbians and female-exclusive bisexual women to have the two concepts conflated by using "lesbian" interchangeably for both concepts.
In the case of lesbians, it's obviously destructive to female homosexuals to reinforce the notion that being a lesbian is a choice. That plays into the patriarchal, lesbophobic narrative that exclusive female homosexuals don't really exist, and by extension that any self-identified lesbian can be converted by the "right man." And if we acknowledge that true female homosexuals DO exist (and they do), it should follow that it's wrong for people who are not female homosexuals (I.e. bisexuals pretending to be lesbians) to speak for female homosexuals. A bisexual woman cannot understand what it's like to be exclusively female attracted. It is not a political or lifestyle choice.
It's also detrimental to bisexual women to assert that one can "become" a lesbian through choice or action, and this side of things doesn't get discussed enough. The political lesbian choice paradigm erases bisexual women who are partnered to women, and plays into the notion that bisexual women are just straight women who are experimenting, and couldn't possibly be serious about dating or marrying women. (Because if they were serious, they would just "choose" to become lesbians!) Or the other implication is that one can only be bisexual if one is non-monogamous or sleeping around with both sexes.
I don't know whether it's tragic or predictable that these bisexual women who pretend to be lesbians often reserve the most contempt and derision for other bisexual women who don't join them in cosplaying as lesbians. They speak about us with the mockery and ridicule of people eager to put distance between themselves and the group they wish they weren't a part of.
And you know what? I actually get it! As a bisexual woman married to a woman, I don't feel represented by the majority of bisexual women, who are mostly in heterosexual relationships. I do feel more represented by lesbians, given that I am a woman spending my life with another woman who I'm madly in love with.
But I also know that my experience is not unique. Of my female friends who are married to women, about half have bisexual histories. Women like us are also all over the popular culture, and are probably the majority of wlw celebrities. Consider women like Kristen Stewart, Sarah Paulson, Abbi Jacobson and Jodi Balfour, Cynthia Nixon, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting. All bisexuals in serious partnerships with women.
And if you look at the statistics (which Julie and her Lesbian Project co-host Kathleen Stock acknowledge is neither of their strong suits), you'll see that in most surveys about sexual orientation, about half of the women who are married or partnered to other women are in fact bisexual. (Yes, the majority of bisexual women in the general population go on to marry men, but *of the small percentage of women who spend their lives in partnerships/marriages with other women*, only about half report being exclusively female attracted over the course of their lives. And in some surveys I've read, it's actually a majority of women partnered to women who report a bisexual history of attraction.)
In conclusion, we should be able to name and celebrate bisexual women who chose to spend their lives with other women without erasing the existence of genuine innate female homosexuality. Being a lesbian is not a choice. We need another word that puts the emphasis on love between women but that does not appropriate female homosexuality by people who are not in fact homosexual females.
If you try to view your conundrum through a feminist lens, you would quickly discern the term you are looking for that means ‘woman who loves woman’ is ‘lesbian feminist’. An adjectival ‘lesbian’ because it qualifies the key concept of feminist.
What do you call exclusive female homosexuals? By insisting on calling all women loving women lesbians, you are pretending that the category of innate female homosexuals does not exist.
Not pretending, it’s a political strategy from the 70s to break down women’s internalised homophobia or denial. It’s a political lesbian idea that is soooo unfashionable these when gender ideology has colonised the concept of a spectrum in sexuality and substituted a bastardised concept of gender. Seems like it’s been a successful tactic for them and hardened definitions and boundaries.
Why do you assume lesbianism is solely innate? You can’t prove if something is the result of ‘nature’ or ‘nurture’ (or both) You have to rely on your experience. I totally validate your experience but you’re not the only woman in the world sexually attracted to other women.
I just don’t get this. People who say “it’s not a choice” don’t mean that it’s not a choice for bisexual people to pursue same sex (or opposite sex) relationships if that feels best for them. They also don’t mean it’s not a choice to end a relationship if one realizes they don’t have sexual and romantic love for their parter bc they have finally connected with their sexuality and now realize they’re gay. They mean it’s not a choice to feel same-sex sexual attraction. Which it isn’t. By Renate’s own admission, she did not *choose* to be struck by love/desire when she saw the woman at the party. She just was. Because she innately contained the capacity for that. Thats what people mean by “born this way.” Not everyone realizes their innate, unique sexuality at a *young* age- some (especially women) take YEARS- even into one’s 30’s- but a sexuality one connects to at the tail end of adolescence, or even nearing old age, isn’t any less “innate” just because the knowledge came later. If she ever felt sexual and romantic desire for her husband or other male partners, then she’s bisexual. If she got married bc it was “just what you do” (which was common at the time) but was cut off from her sexuality and didn’t realize that she wasn’t sexually/romantically into men until she finally felt true sexual/romantic attraction- and exclusive to women, then she was always a lesbian. I think putting out the idea that people choose their sexual feelings is harmful, because it’s false. Aren’t radical feminists supposed to be all about staying connected to reality?
Emotions can be suppressed witso what is ‘choice can be suppressed beyond a woman’s awareness, only to burst forth when conditions support them, so what is ‘choice’? Is choosing a boyfriend/husband that you mistakenly believe you are sexually attracted not a choice?
I loved the article. I appreciate and accept lesbians whether they say they just are lesbians (had no choice) and others who say they chose lesbianism, but I admit I sometimes find it a bit off-putting when straight people talk about homosexuality not being a choice. Sometimes it sounds like they're saying "they can't help it" or maybe they mean "people wouldn't choose it because it's so hard" and to them I usually reply.........I think a woman choosing women (or choosing lesbianism) is a great choice. I was with men up until about 23, then I met lesbians............I chose to move in that direction and yes I was very attracted to women. Was it a choice? In many ways - yes. But I was also a feminist first and I found run of the mill, daily sexism exhausting so being in women-only circles was also invigorating and refreshing and relaxing. It's not one thing or the other and our lives are complicated and we have varied experiences. I so look forward to your book Julie!
Thanks to Julie and Renate for this lovely and inspiring story. I am translating it into spanish because I know many women who would love to read it.
I can speak for myself: I chose to be a lesbian four years ago, I am 59 now and I always thought I liked men. I was mistaken. They *made* me think I liked them. I truly believe we have a choice, but for me the only choice would be loving women. Heterosexuality is imposed on us since childhood so there’s no choice in it, is it? And I can tell you that when I left men and men’s world behind, and focused on women, I started to feel attracted to some of them (as no woman likes ALL men but just some of them). Someone has mentioned Mary Daly and I love Mary Daly and her wonderful genuine words: once you take out the “Mindbindings (layers of crippling patriarchal thought patterns comparable to the footbindings which mutilated millions of Chinese women for over one thousand years; master-minded myths and ideologies meant to mummify the spirit and maim the brain)”, it all becomes clear and easy.
This is such an authentic and beautiful story. Nowadays it's so forgotten that lesbianism can be a choice for women - even saying that might get you cancel-. So, I thank you for bringing these types of stories to all women, so we all can remember that hundreds of women have taken this path and never regreted. Thank you <3
I agree it's a choice to act on attraction to other women and pursue relationships with them, but having that attraction in the first place isn't a matter of choice. You either are a lesbian if you don't have any attraction to men, or a bisexual who chooses to only be with women: I've heard the term "feb" or "febfem" - female exclusive bisexual (feminist) - used to describe that and I think it's a useful term. Straight women don't have that same desire for women in the first place, and lesbians who have no desire for men still need a word to describe themselves.
That’s a fascinating recount of Renata’s ‘choice’ and I can see how, for her, it was a choice. For me, I am uncomfortable with the notion of choice about being a lesbian. The only ‘choice’ I recognise for me (and for so many others, I believe) is choosing to live my life as a lesbian, rather than remaining not only closeted but in denial in order to survive. Coming out for me was no big deal (and I know how lucky I am) once I knew that women like me existed and we had a name. I was a lesbian, no choice about that, but I chose to live openly as a lesbian, embracing all that was to follow (this was late 70s onwards - oh what fun we had in the 80s in the UK with section 28 etc..). So, I think I’m only comfortable with choice when I know what I am choosing between - this was never a choice between men or women, it was only ever going to be women.
I wish attraction was a choice, would probably make for easier relationships. But it seems to not be and we all know that. She definitely has attraction towards women, and maybe men but I don’t know since she doesn’t talk about if she had attraction towards men.
The issue I take with this idea that woman can choose to be lesbian is the impact on lesbians themselves. I personally don’t want a bunch of women play acting same sex attraction when they are not. I don’t want women forcing themselves to have sex with other women. It really is devastating to a lesbian to have a woman pretending and not truly be into her. It’s hurtful.
It’s wrong all the way around to act like people can choose to be sexual attracted to a sex they are not.
I agree. Gays and lesbians were, by historical definition, people who were exclusively sexually attracted to the same sex. Homosexuals. For centuries, people tried to change and convert us, often resorting to hideous human rights violations in Western Nations such as institutionalizing us, shock treating us, incarcerating us, killing and beating us because we refused to breed with the opposite sex and we were different. Still happening in other non Western Nations. What I believe won the hearts and minds of people as an activist was when we rose and said “I was born this way” and that or our sexual orientation was innate. That it wasn’t a choice for us or a phase we would grow out of. Finally compassion and understanding that we could not change.
Our rights have been lost and our identities erased in many nations, including my own (Canada). “Homosexual” has been deemed an obsolete term by our government. Lesbians are not free to gather with their own kind without fear of persecution or fear of being mobbed by angry trans activists. We are no longer free to say things like we believe sex is binary and immutable or we don’t think trans women are women without getting sued or charged with hate speech. While the UK 🇬🇧 is fighting hard to maintain women’s and homosexual rights, appreciate Sall Grover just lost her case in Australia 🇦🇺 in Federal Court at a cost of $1.2M and rising to defend having to be sued for not allowing a biological male to use a female only app.
So for anyone to say that our legal definitions and sex doesn’t matter, think again. Our rights as homosexuals are under attack. As are women’s rights when we any male can declare themselves a woman.
I very much appreciated Renata’s joyful account of her lesbian existence and envy the close and loving relationship she enjoys with Susan, who I find an absolute treasure working with in our joint feminist activist commitments I, too, have a (now) critical science background that veered off into feminism. I am proud to say I *chose* lesbian existence, am uninterested in debating the genetics of homosexuality because my research has shown me that’s a dead end. So I reject ‘born this way’ debates and patronising ‘it’s OK to be bisexual’ comments because I don’t need such ideas to justify my lesbianism; it’s simply a joy to be part of a supportive feminist lesbian culture that is accepting and giving and challenging and the source of deep friendships and love. And, of course, we know what a woman is and celebrate all our many creative and positive attributes.
I don't think it's a matter of justifying it, rather a matter of having clear definitions of what a lesbian is and what we mean by that word, just as we need a clear definition of what a woman is. Some women have no attraction to men whatsoever and have only ever been attracted to women, and some are attracted to both but choose to only be with women, and those are different things. There's no judgement in saying it's okay to be bisexual - I'm a bisexual myself, and we do have a lot in common with lesbians, mostly we're assumed to be lesbian and treated as such if we're in same sex relationships, but it is a different experience and we should be proud of that and not take words from lesbians who already have men and straight women encroaching on their spaces without us doing it.
Well put. Thank you for acknowledging that as a bisexual. There is a difference between lesbians, bisexual and heterosexual women. My predisposition to be strongly and exclusively sexually attracted to females is innate. I was born this way so the only choice many of us had was whether to act on what was innate. To be in a lesbian relationship does not mean one is necessarily a lesbian. Just as being in married in a heterosexual relationship does not necessarily make one heterosexual. We just are what we are and I fail to see how it is patronizing to acknowledge our differences.
Beautifully stated.
The pushback to discussing these issues isn’t just coming from conservatives. It’s also coming from trans activists and their supporters who have erased what it means to be lesbian or gay with some maintaining that biological sex is a social construct as is sexual orientation. Hugely problematic because gay and lesbian rights fall to the definition of biological sex.
Imperative we have these frank discussions because this is coming at us hard.
I accept trans IDing people feel they were born that way. I know that to be true of many I’ve known. What’s happening is that trans activists are not accepting so are we born this way and that their rights don’t get to infringe on the rights of others. So no, you can’t coerce gays and lesbians into sleeping with you or force us into accepting your belief system. And no you can’t infringe on women’s hard won rights.
We never said people had to accept us. Just give us equal rights which both homos and trans people now have. Equal rights doesn’t not mean you get to take away my rights and that’s what has been allowed to happen.
Love this story. What is it with headmistresses? Mine was rumoured to be with the sports teacher. Totally down with women who choose to be with women. I rejoice in that. My mum always described being gay as a ‘lifestyle choice’ (and not in a nice way) and I’m sure it is for some women. But I’ve never personally felt like it was a choice I could make. I just am (for whatever reason) and always have been as far back as I can remember.
That’s funny. Always a sports teacher. And often partnered up with the headmistress or humanities teacher as far back as I can remember.
Lesbians are more likely to be non-conforming and enjoy playing sport and humanities grads learn to think critically and therefore be more non conforming. Voila! There’s a pattern for lesbians to find each other. 💚🤍🤣💕💕💕
So funny. Yes, we tend to find each other quickly by signing up for humanities, especially women’s studies courses. Or on sports fields from the time we’re young. I headed there because I didn’t want to play Barbies and dress up with other girls. I’ll argue one of the reasons we see so many great lesbian athletes is many of us have been playing sports from a young age. When I felt I didn’t fit in and there wasn’t anyone to play with, I’d stand and shoot hoops alone for hours each day or bash tennis balls against a wall. Is it any wonder that when Martina came along it was like 😳, good Christ, what a serve! Or when we watch lesbian 🏀 players sink it repeatedly, I’m like that’s a lesbo who stood shooting baskets until they got every shot. By age 12, I could sink it past center court. And when I discovered all the cheerleaders (usually pretty girls) and I’d start to play for them. Until, most regrettably, I’d be benched for showing off. That really sucked.
Also we lesbians are less vulnerable to seeking or needing male approval & thus freer to play sports. 🏀 This explains in part why the All American Girls Pro Baseball League, Women’s Pro Basketball League (first US) and even current US soccer & b’ball teams are lesbian-heavy, so to speak.
Yes, and non-conformity would include ‘being less vulnerable to seeking or needing male approval’.
Years ago I was on roster at Lesbian Line in South Australia. The phone rang and it was two women of quite senior years, one of them in the background giggling. They had read an article in the newspaper that day and decided to phone us to find out if they were lesbians. They hadn’t known the word. They asked me “What do lesbians do?” My mouth opened and I said “we do a lot of gardening”. So they told me about their garden first. A lifetime together and now a word to describe themselves.
It's interesting to see many commenters rely on a rigid biologically deterministic, static and ahistorical concept of sexuality. I do not support such beliefs.
Like many others in the 70s and 80s, I came to lesbianism with a sense of choice through my feminist political activism and understanding of feminist theory. A standout out text was Audre Lord's text 'Compulsory Heterosexuality'. What a gift for women like myself who had never questioned our het identity. So, too, have Mary Daly's texts made sense. And I benefited from feminist support to think for myself in other ways, to conform less to all sorts of stereotypes in my behariour and beliefs. That includes benefiting from the non-conformity of many lesbians who have known they are lesbian from an early age. I needed lesbian feminism--to state i am a lesbian, to leave my second marriage, to live in a share house with other lesbian friends both new and already in my life. and to discover my unfolding sexual desire for other women.
I have remained committed to lesbian be-ing and politics since then. And I wasn't alone, though some have returned to relating to men and bisexuality. Many other women like myself underwent radical transformation to be-ing Lesbian, an ontological understanding of 'lesbian as an active state, a verb, that is beyond the authority of the Father or of a Male God.
For a definition of lesbian I turn to Mary Daly's words where be-ing refers to 'actual participation in the Ultimate/Intimate Reality--Be-ing, the Verb,' 'the Final Cause, the Good who is self-communicating, who is the Verb from whom, in whom, and with whom all true movements move.' ('Wickedary' cited in 'Outercourse. The Bedazzling Voyage', 1992, p.158). Her use of familiar Christian language in radically non-conforming way is a sign of her 'amazing' struggles to break free from a patriarchal religious upbringing and earlier commitments as an adult. I continue to admire her courage and bold ideas and am still attached to a dynamic political truth of lesbian be-ing.
I read Mary Daly's Gyn/Ecology and Pure Lust almost 40 years ago, in college (well -- while in college, not "for" college), and I can count on one hand how many times I've heard her mentioned since. I wish you could see the smile on my face when I read your comment!! Thanks!
I first heard of her from radical lesbians in the peace movement in the early 1980s.
My click for lesbian feminism was Adrienne Rich’s ‘Compulsory Heterosexuality’. An earlier click for feminism is harder to ID but probably Mary Daly’s ‘Gyn/ecology’ a couple of years earlier. I was fortunate to have been reading these while able to talk (hesitantly) with radical feminists.
I stumbled onto the radical second-wave feminists while browsing in the public library branch at age 18. I first checked out The Female Eunuch, and I then proceeded to read everything in that library section. I remember thinking, with each book, "when I finish this one, I'm not going to read any more of these. This is too depressing." But I couldn't stop! Was it Ms Magazine that described the "click" when you learn to recognize sexism? That totally happened to me with those library books.
Beautiful story from the lovely Renate Klein, who I got to know through our mutual friend, the late lamented Dale Spender, when both lived in London. Relate and Sue started Spinifex Press, back in Australia. Still going strong.
I haven't read all the comments here as I agree 'born that way' is a dead-end and disproven anyway. But I agree with Susan H. about the times we came out. A lot of the comments seem to dismiss that when a lot of us DECIDED we were lesbians, the time before we we were adolescents we'd never even heard the term. It was assumed that women growing up in the 1950s would get married - there wasn't another choice. It was the WLM that liberated us all, when we knew we could love women and be lesbians. So ageism going on here as well and a lack of knowledge of lesbian history.
I'm in my mid-60s. Years ago, we called women who "chose" lesbianism "political lesbians".
That’s funny. Or we said they were too afraid to come out so they identified as bi as it was more politically correct to be seen as halfway “normal” at the time. Or that all they needed was to cross the line into lesbo land where they'd realize how great sex and life was to be us. Nothing wrong with political lesbians. They’ve been amongst us for centuries.
It’s ironic that quite a number of you are criticising Renate for using the word ‘choose’. In the time when Renate (and I) were adolescents, lesbian existence barely registered. See her comment on this in her piece. How is it possible that decades of lesbian existence and activism count for nothing. I note also that some of you mention being married to a woman. How is it that getting into the institution of marriage is the thing these days rather than getting out of it or resisting marriage as we did in our time. No one is genetically primed for sexual orientation. Big Pharma would love us to believe its like that, more profits from medicalisation for them.
I'm going to try doing a bit of philosophy as Kathleen taught me how to do when I read her book.
We need a concept that means "woman who loves women, whose romantic and sexual life revolves around women, or who spends her life partnered to a woman/women." This is a distinct concept from "exclusive female homosexual." One concept is about behavior and how one chooses to live one's life. The other concept is about innate sexual orientation, which cannot be changed.
These concepts probably overlap a majority of the time, but there are clearly many cases (like this one) where they don't overlap, and in my opinion it's detrimental to both lesbians and female-exclusive bisexual women to have the two concepts conflated by using "lesbian" interchangeably for both concepts.
In the case of lesbians, it's obviously destructive to female homosexuals to reinforce the notion that being a lesbian is a choice. That plays into the patriarchal, lesbophobic narrative that exclusive female homosexuals don't really exist, and by extension that any self-identified lesbian can be converted by the "right man." And if we acknowledge that true female homosexuals DO exist (and they do), it should follow that it's wrong for people who are not female homosexuals (I.e. bisexuals pretending to be lesbians) to speak for female homosexuals. A bisexual woman cannot understand what it's like to be exclusively female attracted. It is not a political or lifestyle choice.
It's also detrimental to bisexual women to assert that one can "become" a lesbian through choice or action, and this side of things doesn't get discussed enough. The political lesbian choice paradigm erases bisexual women who are partnered to women, and plays into the notion that bisexual women are just straight women who are experimenting, and couldn't possibly be serious about dating or marrying women. (Because if they were serious, they would just "choose" to become lesbians!) Or the other implication is that one can only be bisexual if one is non-monogamous or sleeping around with both sexes.
I don't know whether it's tragic or predictable that these bisexual women who pretend to be lesbians often reserve the most contempt and derision for other bisexual women who don't join them in cosplaying as lesbians. They speak about us with the mockery and ridicule of people eager to put distance between themselves and the group they wish they weren't a part of.
And you know what? I actually get it! As a bisexual woman married to a woman, I don't feel represented by the majority of bisexual women, who are mostly in heterosexual relationships. I do feel more represented by lesbians, given that I am a woman spending my life with another woman who I'm madly in love with.
But I also know that my experience is not unique. Of my female friends who are married to women, about half have bisexual histories. Women like us are also all over the popular culture, and are probably the majority of wlw celebrities. Consider women like Kristen Stewart, Sarah Paulson, Abbi Jacobson and Jodi Balfour, Cynthia Nixon, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting. All bisexuals in serious partnerships with women.
And if you look at the statistics (which Julie and her Lesbian Project co-host Kathleen Stock acknowledge is neither of their strong suits), you'll see that in most surveys about sexual orientation, about half of the women who are married or partnered to other women are in fact bisexual. (Yes, the majority of bisexual women in the general population go on to marry men, but *of the small percentage of women who spend their lives in partnerships/marriages with other women*, only about half report being exclusively female attracted over the course of their lives. And in some surveys I've read, it's actually a majority of women partnered to women who report a bisexual history of attraction.)
In conclusion, we should be able to name and celebrate bisexual women who chose to spend their lives with other women without erasing the existence of genuine innate female homosexuality. Being a lesbian is not a choice. We need another word that puts the emphasis on love between women but that does not appropriate female homosexuality by people who are not in fact homosexual females.
Sincerely,
A bisexual woman married to a lesbian
If you try to view your conundrum through a feminist lens, you would quickly discern the term you are looking for that means ‘woman who loves woman’ is ‘lesbian feminist’. An adjectival ‘lesbian’ because it qualifies the key concept of feminist.
What do you call exclusive female homosexuals? By insisting on calling all women loving women lesbians, you are pretending that the category of innate female homosexuals does not exist.
Not pretending, it’s a political strategy from the 70s to break down women’s internalised homophobia or denial. It’s a political lesbian idea that is soooo unfashionable these when gender ideology has colonised the concept of a spectrum in sexuality and substituted a bastardised concept of gender. Seems like it’s been a successful tactic for them and hardened definitions and boundaries.
Why do you assume lesbianism is solely innate? You can’t prove if something is the result of ‘nature’ or ‘nurture’ (or both) You have to rely on your experience. I totally validate your experience but you’re not the only woman in the world sexually attracted to other women.
I just don’t get this. People who say “it’s not a choice” don’t mean that it’s not a choice for bisexual people to pursue same sex (or opposite sex) relationships if that feels best for them. They also don’t mean it’s not a choice to end a relationship if one realizes they don’t have sexual and romantic love for their parter bc they have finally connected with their sexuality and now realize they’re gay. They mean it’s not a choice to feel same-sex sexual attraction. Which it isn’t. By Renate’s own admission, she did not *choose* to be struck by love/desire when she saw the woman at the party. She just was. Because she innately contained the capacity for that. Thats what people mean by “born this way.” Not everyone realizes their innate, unique sexuality at a *young* age- some (especially women) take YEARS- even into one’s 30’s- but a sexuality one connects to at the tail end of adolescence, or even nearing old age, isn’t any less “innate” just because the knowledge came later. If she ever felt sexual and romantic desire for her husband or other male partners, then she’s bisexual. If she got married bc it was “just what you do” (which was common at the time) but was cut off from her sexuality and didn’t realize that she wasn’t sexually/romantically into men until she finally felt true sexual/romantic attraction- and exclusive to women, then she was always a lesbian. I think putting out the idea that people choose their sexual feelings is harmful, because it’s false. Aren’t radical feminists supposed to be all about staying connected to reality?
Emotions can be suppressed witso what is ‘choice can be suppressed beyond a woman’s awareness, only to burst forth when conditions support them, so what is ‘choice’? Is choosing a boyfriend/husband that you mistakenly believe you are sexually attracted not a choice?
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I loved the article. I appreciate and accept lesbians whether they say they just are lesbians (had no choice) and others who say they chose lesbianism, but I admit I sometimes find it a bit off-putting when straight people talk about homosexuality not being a choice. Sometimes it sounds like they're saying "they can't help it" or maybe they mean "people wouldn't choose it because it's so hard" and to them I usually reply.........I think a woman choosing women (or choosing lesbianism) is a great choice. I was with men up until about 23, then I met lesbians............I chose to move in that direction and yes I was very attracted to women. Was it a choice? In many ways - yes. But I was also a feminist first and I found run of the mill, daily sexism exhausting so being in women-only circles was also invigorating and refreshing and relaxing. It's not one thing or the other and our lives are complicated and we have varied experiences. I so look forward to your book Julie!
Thanks to Julie and Renate for this lovely and inspiring story. I am translating it into spanish because I know many women who would love to read it.
I can speak for myself: I chose to be a lesbian four years ago, I am 59 now and I always thought I liked men. I was mistaken. They *made* me think I liked them. I truly believe we have a choice, but for me the only choice would be loving women. Heterosexuality is imposed on us since childhood so there’s no choice in it, is it? And I can tell you that when I left men and men’s world behind, and focused on women, I started to feel attracted to some of them (as no woman likes ALL men but just some of them). Someone has mentioned Mary Daly and I love Mary Daly and her wonderful genuine words: once you take out the “Mindbindings (layers of crippling patriarchal thought patterns comparable to the footbindings which mutilated millions of Chinese women for over one thousand years; master-minded myths and ideologies meant to mummify the spirit and maim the brain)”, it all becomes clear and easy.
This is such an authentic and beautiful story. Nowadays it's so forgotten that lesbianism can be a choice for women - even saying that might get you cancel-. So, I thank you for bringing these types of stories to all women, so we all can remember that hundreds of women have taken this path and never regreted. Thank you <3