It is a fallacy, as pro-prostitution lobbyists are well aware, that decriminalising - or legalising - prostitution is safer for the women, and will reduce HIV and other harms. One big lie in fact.
Amazing, I hearted this but want to use the hug heart or crying emoji.... how thoroughly sad that so much virtue has attached to such a bunch of liars, manipulators and fools.
Why would men who support prostitution be in charge of the HIV/AIDS sector, when prostitution is a known vector for HIV transmission? To ensure that HIV/AIDS prevention measures do not include restrictions on the prostitution of men.
The Nordic Model would be a disaster for wealthy gay men who buy sex, as it could not criminalise the use of women as prostitutes without also criminalising their use of young men. They have a strong personal interest in arguing for full decriminalisation, as until then their use of prostituted men puts them at legal risk.
It would be cool people listened to what people who do this labor are asking for to be safer, regardless of your feelings about this work, as a person who does not do this work.
Criminalizing prostitution is actually a eugenics issue, because the majority of people who do sex work are disabled or have some other "mark" that makes it difficult to work a regular job (ie ex prisoner). Until there's actually good access to social services for disabled people in the USA, it's what many people do to survive. Criminalizing is just doubling down on punishment for people who are already struggling.
I used to speculate on how bad things would have to be before I might be willing to attempt survival 'sex work'. Well, things got that bad in 2022, but by then, I was (and still am) so crippled by arthritis and other pain syndromes that there's no way I could even do a hand job.
the focus should be on alleviating the conditions that lead women into renting orifices so we don't have to consider doing it.
personally, I'd prefer penectomy for men who think they can rent a body. 🔪🍆
I agree that nobody should have to do sex work if they don't want to, and I think it would be a lot more helpful if people channeled this energy into disability reform rather than reinforcing systems that lead to making sex workers lives markedly worse.
It's worth remembering that not all sex work is physical labor involving sex with men (phone, cam, etc.), and not all sex work is consumed by men.
I also don't think sex work is inherently unethical, though I realize this is the wrong crowd for that opinion, but it's an opinion based on being close friends with many sex workers who are highly intelligent, good people. My ex GF chose to continue escorting even after getting a "day job" because she has an affinity with the work. It should be a choice, period, but that only works if society is structured in a way where it never has to not be a choice.
OMG, the "not all men" shite again. If you don't acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of this exploitation is done by men, you are hopelessly blinkered.
I'm "hopelessly blinkered" for acknowledging that sex work is not a monolith, that vast swathes of the industry involves no physical contact at all, and that queer porn made by and for women exists? Suit yourself.
the fact that a john doesn't touch a cam girl is irrelevant. He directs what she has to do to her body for his money, and it can be traumatizing for the woman.
Julie, Do I understand that your objection to decriminalising prostitution is that far more men would then have sex with far more women. It is these latter who you are anxious to protect from this fate?
The issue I have is with decriminalizing the *procurement of women’s sexual submission* rather than dealing with the root causes of the vast majority of such women entering prostitution, whether by “choice” due to economic hardship or by direct coercion (by trafficking, by and for the enablers of their drug addictions, etc.).
Women are still oppressed, and far more often than men are faced with circumstances in which prostitution is seen as their only means to liberate themselves (and too often their children) from a male abuser of some kind (physical, sexual, financial, emotional) — only to regularly find themselves enslaved to another male abuser, as well as being pimped out to even more male abusers.
Until improverished & vulnerable women & girls (mostly, but not exclusively) are afforded economic justice, and until all their (vastly disproportionately) male abusers are being treated as harshly by the law as those abusers have treat their victims (not to mention the harsh treatment such victims receive from the legal & policing systems!), the idea of decriminalizing prostitution simply perpetuates and exacerbates this phenomenally unjust treatment of females by males, and males by the courts.
Deal with those things, and the high-end call girls can go back to doing their thing as a legitimate choice: their bodies, their business.
But until then, it’s a travesty and grossly misogynistic to talk of decriminalizing the sex trade.
Of course, this is what the Nordic model gets right: criminalize all participants except the victims, and provide help (though still not nearly enough) to those victims.
(As well, this is the model that “gender affirmative care” advocates & their medical enablers should face, imo, while providing appropriate & extensive supports to young people who find themselves ensnared in the grasp of these GAC pimps & punters.)
I don't disagree with this, but it misses something important. More men than women seem to be dissatisfied with their partner, or haven't one for whatever reason. If prostitution disappeared, as would in most cases be a growth of justice, the men who want to buy them would be dissatisfied. Of course its easy to say that that is their problem, but rightly or wrongly I suspect, just what those men might get up to, worries governments. Whether it should or not we can certainly debate, but that I suspect is where its at. We need to consider this - may be I'm wrong in what I've just written and would be pleased with evidence that anyone could produce, if I am.
The answer to unsatisfied male sexual urges is NOT to let them abuse women.
If they’re that dissatisfied, they can prostitute themselves to each other.
Most have hands, and can afford a fleshlight or other self-gratification aid (cheaper than procuring a prostitute!).
If that’s not sufficient, and these men get riled up, that’s a societal problem to corral, not a problem that women should be forced to submit to solving for them.
And anyone who thinks otherwise is literally placing male urges above female bodily autonomy.
In theory I agree with this, but the ability of the state to guarantee these men won't find other women to abuse, eg on dates, is limited. Easy to write what you did, but to bring it about in practice is lot more difficult.
Not that the status quo is the best things could be, its not. I've wondered whether helping prostitutes to obtain some education or training to help them find other work could help? I just don't know, but has it been tried?
The issue with half the population being allowed to purchase access to the bodies of the other half of the population are incredibly numerous but 'increased sex' seems to be a trifling way to explain sexual abuse that risks the victims life and health.
Prostitution is not 'having sex'.
Amazing, I hearted this but want to use the hug heart or crying emoji.... how thoroughly sad that so much virtue has attached to such a bunch of liars, manipulators and fools.
Oh my goodness- the Paris Hilton Cake. Justice Kirby - such a charmer.
Why would men who support prostitution be in charge of the HIV/AIDS sector, when prostitution is a known vector for HIV transmission? To ensure that HIV/AIDS prevention measures do not include restrictions on the prostitution of men.
The Nordic Model would be a disaster for wealthy gay men who buy sex, as it could not criminalise the use of women as prostitutes without also criminalising their use of young men. They have a strong personal interest in arguing for full decriminalisation, as until then their use of prostituted men puts them at legal risk.
It would be cool people listened to what people who do this labor are asking for to be safer, regardless of your feelings about this work, as a person who does not do this work.
Criminalizing prostitution is actually a eugenics issue, because the majority of people who do sex work are disabled or have some other "mark" that makes it difficult to work a regular job (ie ex prisoner). Until there's actually good access to social services for disabled people in the USA, it's what many people do to survive. Criminalizing is just doubling down on punishment for people who are already struggling.
I used to speculate on how bad things would have to be before I might be willing to attempt survival 'sex work'. Well, things got that bad in 2022, but by then, I was (and still am) so crippled by arthritis and other pain syndromes that there's no way I could even do a hand job.
the focus should be on alleviating the conditions that lead women into renting orifices so we don't have to consider doing it.
personally, I'd prefer penectomy for men who think they can rent a body. 🔪🍆
I agree that nobody should have to do sex work if they don't want to, and I think it would be a lot more helpful if people channeled this energy into disability reform rather than reinforcing systems that lead to making sex workers lives markedly worse.
It's worth remembering that not all sex work is physical labor involving sex with men (phone, cam, etc.), and not all sex work is consumed by men.
I also don't think sex work is inherently unethical, though I realize this is the wrong crowd for that opinion, but it's an opinion based on being close friends with many sex workers who are highly intelligent, good people. My ex GF chose to continue escorting even after getting a "day job" because she has an affinity with the work. It should be a choice, period, but that only works if society is structured in a way where it never has to not be a choice.
OMG, the "not all men" shite again. If you don't acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of this exploitation is done by men, you are hopelessly blinkered.
I'm "hopelessly blinkered" for acknowledging that sex work is not a monolith, that vast swathes of the industry involves no physical contact at all, and that queer porn made by and for women exists? Suit yourself.
the fact that a john doesn't touch a cam girl is irrelevant. He directs what she has to do to her body for his money, and it can be traumatizing for the woman.
Julie, Do I understand that your objection to decriminalising prostitution is that far more men would then have sex with far more women. It is these latter who you are anxious to protect from this fate?
I can’t speak for Julie, but for myself:
The issue I have is with decriminalizing the *procurement of women’s sexual submission* rather than dealing with the root causes of the vast majority of such women entering prostitution, whether by “choice” due to economic hardship or by direct coercion (by trafficking, by and for the enablers of their drug addictions, etc.).
Women are still oppressed, and far more often than men are faced with circumstances in which prostitution is seen as their only means to liberate themselves (and too often their children) from a male abuser of some kind (physical, sexual, financial, emotional) — only to regularly find themselves enslaved to another male abuser, as well as being pimped out to even more male abusers.
Until improverished & vulnerable women & girls (mostly, but not exclusively) are afforded economic justice, and until all their (vastly disproportionately) male abusers are being treated as harshly by the law as those abusers have treat their victims (not to mention the harsh treatment such victims receive from the legal & policing systems!), the idea of decriminalizing prostitution simply perpetuates and exacerbates this phenomenally unjust treatment of females by males, and males by the courts.
Deal with those things, and the high-end call girls can go back to doing their thing as a legitimate choice: their bodies, their business.
But until then, it’s a travesty and grossly misogynistic to talk of decriminalizing the sex trade.
Of course, this is what the Nordic model gets right: criminalize all participants except the victims, and provide help (though still not nearly enough) to those victims.
(As well, this is the model that “gender affirmative care” advocates & their medical enablers should face, imo, while providing appropriate & extensive supports to young people who find themselves ensnared in the grasp of these GAC pimps & punters.)
I don't disagree with this, but it misses something important. More men than women seem to be dissatisfied with their partner, or haven't one for whatever reason. If prostitution disappeared, as would in most cases be a growth of justice, the men who want to buy them would be dissatisfied. Of course its easy to say that that is their problem, but rightly or wrongly I suspect, just what those men might get up to, worries governments. Whether it should or not we can certainly debate, but that I suspect is where its at. We need to consider this - may be I'm wrong in what I've just written and would be pleased with evidence that anyone could produce, if I am.
Ian M
The answer to unsatisfied male sexual urges is NOT to let them abuse women.
If they’re that dissatisfied, they can prostitute themselves to each other.
Most have hands, and can afford a fleshlight or other self-gratification aid (cheaper than procuring a prostitute!).
If that’s not sufficient, and these men get riled up, that’s a societal problem to corral, not a problem that women should be forced to submit to solving for them.
And anyone who thinks otherwise is literally placing male urges above female bodily autonomy.
In theory I agree with this, but the ability of the state to guarantee these men won't find other women to abuse, eg on dates, is limited. Easy to write what you did, but to bring it about in practice is lot more difficult.
Not that the status quo is the best things could be, its not. I've wondered whether helping prostitutes to obtain some education or training to help them find other work could help? I just don't know, but has it been tried?
Ian
You should read up on the Nordic model.
And just because it won’t be easy is no excuse for society to condone abuse.
All (mostly male) abusers of all kinds need to be held accountable for such abuse. End of story.
Be interested to know more about this. Ian
The issue with half the population being allowed to purchase access to the bodies of the other half of the population are incredibly numerous but 'increased sex' seems to be a trifling way to explain sexual abuse that risks the victims life and health.