In the late 1990s, I was co-founder of the UK's first re-education course for kerb crawlers. Spoiler: it didn't work. We should simply criminalise the purchase of sex (and decriminalise the selling)
Maybe, instead of going hard core and criminalising.. more education for teenagers 13 upwards. Corporate … TV campaign… men pay sometimes because they don’t invest in relationships.. they are paying to say goodbye “ it is just sex”… education for women too.. sometimes people just want sex… not poetry, not deep conversations… prostitution is about poverty at the level of the seller and spiritual bankruptcy in the buyer.
Criminalizing is what will change the culture of acceptance around men buying sex. We've talked plenty. The men who buy sex will only change when they experience consequences.
Half of them will get off on the stories of female suffering - like the men who want to get into women's rape crisis centres. Others will just get angrier about being told off and take it out on the next woman. They can't be taught empathy if they're already using women they've demonstrated what they are. No point talking *to* them, just tell them how they're going to be managed because they've demonstrated they can't be trusted to behave in a civilised society.
Great piece, Julie. We had these training courses back then, trying to change attitudes, trying to be preventative. We often didn't have enough time, but we did our best. I wasn't involved in this particular one, but did a fair few on attitudes towards women and minorities. Sometimes, we got through to someone. That was a good day...seeing the penny drop. Sometimes, when I see you and others like you being monstered online, I wish they could take a look at your CV. They wouldn't care, of course, but they should know just how much you've done, put yourself in harm's way, to fight for better lives for women and girls. I think this should be a regular thing...a sort of Dispatches from the past, kind of thing. Really loved reading this. ✊
Criminalizing any aspect of the voluntary, non violent sexual behavior between adults is clearly insane. Instead give the management of the business of sex over to the one governmental institution that could clearly handle it with efficiency, accountability and safety for all participants. The DMV.
Prostitution is anything but voluntary and non-violent. The woman (girl?) involved would not be having sex if she wasn't being paid, so I'm not sure how "voluntary" that is? I'm pretty sure that most prostitutes actually hate the men they're having sex with, if the article tells us anything. I understand you are advocating for "better prostitution," but the buying and selling of human flesh can never be made better, as in more efficient, safe, or accountable. It is as if the slaves were only treated better, the South could have kept their Peculiar Institution.
Michael: I wouldn’t have worked at my job if I hadn’t been paid. Would you have? Does that mean that it wasn’t voluntary? I don’t have personal knowledge but I have read enough to know that like most commercial transactions most sexual commercial transactions are probably non violent and those that are not should be dealt with by law enforcement. Of course, keeping prostitution illegal means violence is rarely reported and prosecuted. What difference does it make if a prostitute hates her customers? Many sales people probably do also. It’s not relevant. There is no reason that prostitution can’t be made safer and accountable. Bring it out in the sunshine. The best disinfectant. It’s its illegal nature that causes most of its harms. Prohibition of tobacco, alcohol, drugs, porn and prostitution have never worked and never will. Legalization doesn’t solve all of their ills but it mitigates them.
No, although I have had jobs that I enjoyed that I've done work above and beyond that I wasn't paid for because I loved what I was doing. I would be hard-pressed for a sex worker to say the same (George RR Martin's portrayal of sex workers in Game of Thrones notwithstanding). I acknowledge that yes, legalization can be a mitigating factor, but in the end it still the selling of human flesh, and nothing good can come of it (except for the pimps). While there are scientific studies showing that sex workers have better health outcomes in countries with legal prostitution, there are also studies showing that such countries also have higher rates of human trafficking. If the sex workers hate their employers (pimps and/or johns) so much, that must at least mitigate the idea it is completely "voluntary." While there may be sex workers who actually like what they do, I would say they are the exception. I honestly don't think women grow up thinking prostitution is a valid career choice, but something they choose when they have no other options. Sex is not equivalent to tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc. except they all can kill you in short order. They're legal but that doesn't mean they are good for you. Legalized prostitution costs money (registration fees, mandatory STD testing, etc.) and the illegal trade (cheaper, unregulated ie underaged) still thrives. I will agree that we need to decriminalize the sale of sex (ie the prostitutes are not at fault) and criminalize the purchase of it.To truly address the scope and scale of prostitution requires a hard reset of cultural attitudes and economic opportunities.
I don’t agree on criminalizing the buying of sex, but I do agree we need to find a way to eliminate the pimps and human trafficking. That’s part of the reason for my tongue in cheek suggestion that we turn the management of prostitution over to the DMV bureaucracy. A bland and totally unglamorous institution but one that operates fairly well in carrying out its assigned duties. I have enjoyed our civil discussion of a difficult topic.
Is it time to name and shame the men who kerb crawl... It is the equivalent of tattooing "sex offender" on their foreheads. Something that tells society that they are not to be trusted? Social media might be the place to do it. A facebook page of all men picked up for kerb crawling so that everyone knows what they have been doing. Drastic, it may be, but it is not just prostitutes affected by kerb crawlers, it is young girls on their way home from school, grannies out doing their shopping, and women walking home from work, walking their dogs, and minding their own business.
Another question “ to go deeper”… education around the different mindset of men and why it is women who must support other women without agenda. There is a cultural divide .. in the Church, the synagogues, our schools. Rebellious feminists who think they can wear, behave, act like boys.. do not help in the reality that currently it is still a man’s world. Understanding men’s’ brains .. the private sector education tend to have an advantage on this.
Understanding why the late John Bowlby nailed it regarding attachment disorders.. .. the lack of understanding around why girls who are so young manage to have so little maternal nurturing . Are children born in prison more likely to have poor outcomes? Are girls who are abused before aged 12 more likely to become prostitutes.. regardless of who by. Creating an environment to really protect children might be a movement for change.
The same can be said about pornography. The only difference is that every OF subscriber becomes a "pimp" unto themselves. If women in such circumstances were free of fear, fame, and/or finances, would they still fall in line?
Why do women have to "fall into line"? Why are decent men not policing their brothers who think it okay to buy, sell and abuse women? As my father has said on many occasions, "the only reason men get away with this behaviour, is because other men let them"! If men dont stand up to be counted, nothing changes. I have brothers and a father who regulary call out behaviours and attitudes that sicken them. They get called names. They get pushed about. But they push back as they have sisters, daughters, wives and they had mothers/grandmothers. They respect women. All women.
Maybe, instead of going hard core and criminalising.. more education for teenagers 13 upwards. Corporate … TV campaign… men pay sometimes because they don’t invest in relationships.. they are paying to say goodbye “ it is just sex”… education for women too.. sometimes people just want sex… not poetry, not deep conversations… prostitution is about poverty at the level of the seller and spiritual bankruptcy in the buyer.
Talking about the subject doesn’t happen.
Found this line quite profound “prostitution is about poverty at the level of the seller and spiritual bankruptcy in the buyer.”
Me too. Good line.
Criminalizing is what will change the culture of acceptance around men buying sex. We've talked plenty. The men who buy sex will only change when they experience consequences.
Unfortunately, I do not think consequences will stop them.
I'm pretty sure the data shows that it does. When men start losing their families & jobs & respect in the community, they change their behavior.
I think your spoiler may be too harsh…sounds like it may have worked, even if just for one person. Thank you and please don’t stop!
Prostitution is inherently violent & exploitative. It cannot be reformed. Prison time & fines are the way to reduce demand & change our culture.
Half of them will get off on the stories of female suffering - like the men who want to get into women's rape crisis centres. Others will just get angrier about being told off and take it out on the next woman. They can't be taught empathy if they're already using women they've demonstrated what they are. No point talking *to* them, just tell them how they're going to be managed because they've demonstrated they can't be trusted to behave in a civilised society.
This is what scares me & why I support jail time & fines for men arrested for buying sex.
27 years ago... And West Yorkshire police and Leeds University get a mention too...
Brilliant .. should be mainstream in schools and all educational facilities… sadly the men who need it are brain dead narcissists.
Great piece, Julie. We had these training courses back then, trying to change attitudes, trying to be preventative. We often didn't have enough time, but we did our best. I wasn't involved in this particular one, but did a fair few on attitudes towards women and minorities. Sometimes, we got through to someone. That was a good day...seeing the penny drop. Sometimes, when I see you and others like you being monstered online, I wish they could take a look at your CV. They wouldn't care, of course, but they should know just how much you've done, put yourself in harm's way, to fight for better lives for women and girls. I think this should be a regular thing...a sort of Dispatches from the past, kind of thing. Really loved reading this. ✊
Criminalizing any aspect of the voluntary, non violent sexual behavior between adults is clearly insane. Instead give the management of the business of sex over to the one governmental institution that could clearly handle it with efficiency, accountability and safety for all participants. The DMV.
Prostitution is anything but voluntary and non-violent. The woman (girl?) involved would not be having sex if she wasn't being paid, so I'm not sure how "voluntary" that is? I'm pretty sure that most prostitutes actually hate the men they're having sex with, if the article tells us anything. I understand you are advocating for "better prostitution," but the buying and selling of human flesh can never be made better, as in more efficient, safe, or accountable. It is as if the slaves were only treated better, the South could have kept their Peculiar Institution.
Michael: I wouldn’t have worked at my job if I hadn’t been paid. Would you have? Does that mean that it wasn’t voluntary? I don’t have personal knowledge but I have read enough to know that like most commercial transactions most sexual commercial transactions are probably non violent and those that are not should be dealt with by law enforcement. Of course, keeping prostitution illegal means violence is rarely reported and prosecuted. What difference does it make if a prostitute hates her customers? Many sales people probably do also. It’s not relevant. There is no reason that prostitution can’t be made safer and accountable. Bring it out in the sunshine. The best disinfectant. It’s its illegal nature that causes most of its harms. Prohibition of tobacco, alcohol, drugs, porn and prostitution have never worked and never will. Legalization doesn’t solve all of their ills but it mitigates them.
No, although I have had jobs that I enjoyed that I've done work above and beyond that I wasn't paid for because I loved what I was doing. I would be hard-pressed for a sex worker to say the same (George RR Martin's portrayal of sex workers in Game of Thrones notwithstanding). I acknowledge that yes, legalization can be a mitigating factor, but in the end it still the selling of human flesh, and nothing good can come of it (except for the pimps). While there are scientific studies showing that sex workers have better health outcomes in countries with legal prostitution, there are also studies showing that such countries also have higher rates of human trafficking. If the sex workers hate their employers (pimps and/or johns) so much, that must at least mitigate the idea it is completely "voluntary." While there may be sex workers who actually like what they do, I would say they are the exception. I honestly don't think women grow up thinking prostitution is a valid career choice, but something they choose when they have no other options. Sex is not equivalent to tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc. except they all can kill you in short order. They're legal but that doesn't mean they are good for you. Legalized prostitution costs money (registration fees, mandatory STD testing, etc.) and the illegal trade (cheaper, unregulated ie underaged) still thrives. I will agree that we need to decriminalize the sale of sex (ie the prostitutes are not at fault) and criminalize the purchase of it.To truly address the scope and scale of prostitution requires a hard reset of cultural attitudes and economic opportunities.
I don’t agree on criminalizing the buying of sex, but I do agree we need to find a way to eliminate the pimps and human trafficking. That’s part of the reason for my tongue in cheek suggestion that we turn the management of prostitution over to the DMV bureaucracy. A bland and totally unglamorous institution but one that operates fairly well in carrying out its assigned duties. I have enjoyed our civil discussion of a difficult topic.
Is it time to name and shame the men who kerb crawl... It is the equivalent of tattooing "sex offender" on their foreheads. Something that tells society that they are not to be trusted? Social media might be the place to do it. A facebook page of all men picked up for kerb crawling so that everyone knows what they have been doing. Drastic, it may be, but it is not just prostitutes affected by kerb crawlers, it is young girls on their way home from school, grannies out doing their shopping, and women walking home from work, walking their dogs, and minding their own business.
I favour castration. Male domestic animals always fare better afterwards. Let's domesticate male human animals too.
Wow what a piece. What an interesting scheme, I really enjoyed the details about each trainer and person in the room.
Another question “ to go deeper”… education around the different mindset of men and why it is women who must support other women without agenda. There is a cultural divide .. in the Church, the synagogues, our schools. Rebellious feminists who think they can wear, behave, act like boys.. do not help in the reality that currently it is still a man’s world. Understanding men’s’ brains .. the private sector education tend to have an advantage on this.
Understanding why the late John Bowlby nailed it regarding attachment disorders.. .. the lack of understanding around why girls who are so young manage to have so little maternal nurturing . Are children born in prison more likely to have poor outcomes? Are girls who are abused before aged 12 more likely to become prostitutes.. regardless of who by. Creating an environment to really protect children might be a movement for change.
The same can be said about pornography. The only difference is that every OF subscriber becomes a "pimp" unto themselves. If women in such circumstances were free of fear, fame, and/or finances, would they still fall in line?
Why do women have to "fall into line"? Why are decent men not policing their brothers who think it okay to buy, sell and abuse women? As my father has said on many occasions, "the only reason men get away with this behaviour, is because other men let them"! If men dont stand up to be counted, nothing changes. I have brothers and a father who regulary call out behaviours and attitudes that sicken them. They get called names. They get pushed about. But they push back as they have sisters, daughters, wives and they had mothers/grandmothers. They respect women. All women.