So good of you mentioning living with contatictions. I think it is the only healthy way to do so. Of course being aware of it. I avoid purists all togehther but as an old German feminist I did hide my love for the music of Frank Zappa.
I can't stand Snoop or Thicke or much pop music at all and I have become - personally, not prescriptively - unable to listen to music with sexist lyrics. However I'm a mad Miles Davis and James Brown fan and would not theoretically want to sit down to dinner with either.
It's hard to navigate a misogyny drenched culture and I think that rather than insist that no one engage with sexism anywhere, we just find a path that's tolerable and get on with trying to change the culture towards a deeper more genuine equality between the sexes.
So glad you said all this. Years ago as a young feminist in Leeds I was talking to a woman who told me she would only read books written by women. At the time it was a real put down, but I remember thinking how much good reading I would miss out on if I tried for that level of purity. Instead, I rejected the idea that I should be ‘right on’ all the time and enjoyed all the dodgy TV, music and literature I liked. Over time I’ve gradually come round to the same conclusions as in this article and stopped beating myself up - hopefully also becoming aware that other people (even men) who hold different opinions or like different stuff than me aren’t actually heretics who should be lectured and snubbed.
Very refreshing read! I've been involved in disability rights for years and I felt the same way about some of the purist dogma in my cohort and the hypercritical attitude of some of my fellow campaigners who were evangelical and yet very dull.
I teach a course on the music business. I wonder if I might assign reading this article for our next discussion. I suspect some will find it enlightening and some will be offended. Some might complain about me, exposing them to JB's unsafe and unhinged thoughts. Your work is awesome.
So glad you are not eschewing your crime fiction - I am a PhD creative writing student writing both a novel and a thesis on the [in]authentic representation of mothers in crime fiction - I’m a huge fan of the genre but a little weary of the lazy reliance on the ‘blame the mother trope’, especially since becoming a mother myself: the premise is that behind every criminal/psychopath/sociopath, or even dysfunctional make detective, there is a crap mother. Those ‘crap mothers’ span the spectrum from abusive, alcoholic women who may eventually have abandoned their boys, to women shamed for ‘staying’ in DV environments or [god forbid] who have had a bit of PND and thus baby’s attachment was impaired. It irritates me, especially when you predict a dick of a mother will enter stage left 20 mins into a new, raved-about TV series or by chapter 3 of a best selling novel... but I am addicted nonetheless - it’s women aged 30-60 that make up the bulk of the readership of this genre. My PhD is about trying to write a novel that pushes back from this trope and, hopefully, might lead to writers/agents/publishers asking whether there is another way to explain a male character’s decent into deviancy. I think we can enjoy culture that taps into these negative tropes about women and mothers without being traitors to our feminism - it’s about being alert to the narratives and thinking critically about them, discussing them, not silencing them or sticking our fingers in our ears and singing ‘la la la not listening’. :)
It may be a poorly written lazy trope but unfortunately it is based in forensic psychology research. Poor attachment between mother and child for whatever reason has ongoing consequences for both mother and child. That bond is very deep and very important and needs to better understood by women today to make society better and healthier. I didn’t before having children.
Actually that is not entirely correct - parental attachment (NB. not maternal attachment) is a significant factor in individual’s propensity to commit crime [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178914000172]. However, it is just one factor: history of abuse in childhood, paternal bonding, paternal absence, intelligence, culture, poverty are all actually better predictors and precedents to criminality/psychopathology. Indeed, many contemporary psychological studies point to the issue that in pathologising maternal blame is, in fact, part of the problem we have in resolving/reducing crime as, in many cases women are, themselves, the victims of domestic abuse/violence and are on coercive and violent relationships such that failure to bond is a result of the familial/relationship culture (ie, it is the fault of abusive and violent fathers and male familial figures). So we have a culture of blaming them for being victims of DV/crime [‘why didn’t she leave?’] and then blaming her for the crime. So, yes, the reliance on the ‘blame the mother’ trope is utterly lazy and overly simplistic because it ignores the factors surrounding why a mother struggled to parent her child, the lack of support available to her, and - in deed, the often hostile environment in which she is forced to operate, and is set up to fail.
I did write ‘Poor attachment between mother and child for whatever reason‘ quite deliberately as I know it is multi factorial, thank you for listing some of them out for me. I didn't intend to victim blame or inflame you, just give another perspective from someone who was born to a 1970s feminist full time working mother and raised by a nanny from four months, after school care and then myself.
Both my posts are in relation to over-reliance of a trope within crime fiction/literature when there is plenty of recent forensic psychological research that indicates that it is socially inappropriate to reply upon and propagate those outdated tropes, especially given a more nuanced contemporary understanding of their context. Specifically that there are far too many significant factors feeding criminality and psychopathy to keep using the emblem dysfunctional mothers as a narrative shorthand. This was in response to a OP about women’s right to enjoy art/culture in which misogyny is deeply embedded because we can be trusted to critically evaluate our individual relationship with it, hence my reply. It was not my intention to derail the OP’s post or create a discussion on the topic of maternal attachment.
‘It was not my intention to derail the OP’s post or create a discussion on the topic of maternal attachment’, well maybe you should just tick the ‘like’ button next time rather than a self aggrandising comment.
I love Metallica. They are not Feminists, but they have improved from their early days when they sold their tank top as a Wifebeater. I am aware of the contradictions when I listen/watch/read, then I decide if I am OK with that. I have grown up in a largely toxic, male dominated world and have had to navigate that as best I can. This is what we do. At least I can see the misogyny now, and point it out, but I can't give up the pure joy of Metallica live or JD Kirk's Hoon series. In Life on Mars the TV series I can find it funny. I love Regency novels as well. As I read them I find echoes of the entitlement and ownership of women then in the behaviour of present day perpetrators. I simply couldn't be a purist, not cut out for it, or too old.
Recently, my company had a big meeting where they rented out an arena and Snoop Dogg closed out the show as a big surprise. I left after a couple of songs, but the next day I heard he had strippers on stage. I don't think women should have to sit and watch sexually objectified women next to their male coworkers.
Thank you for outing yourself like this, Julie! As usual you are making space for women to be people with genuine complexity. I am not a fan of Snoop's music, the rap and hop hop I like is generally female voiced and calling out bullshit rather than celebrating it. I think purity tests with no room for growth, learning or forgiveness are one of the rails that are running us towards totalitarianism. What I like about Snoop is his attitude. Have you ever watched his show So Dumb It's Criminal? The banter with other celebrities can be cutting but when speaking to the non-famous on that show he is Kind. Now, how do you feel about Sean Paul? Or is dancehall not your thing? ;)
Can I ask people a question? Johnny Depp. I can’t watch any of his films, I don’t want my children watching his films. I’ve never been a massive Depphead, I liked his work and thought he was talented.
I have followed Nick Wallis on Twitter for ages and he was covering the case in the U.K. it seemed fair and reasonable outcome. Amber seemed ok but young and a bit damaged, their marriage seemed a total disaster both of their own making.
When he announced that he was talking Amber Heard to court in the States ‘to clear his name’, my stomach sank and I got a funny creepy feeling of déjà vu. He was starting to act and speak like my father and friend’s husband’s who use lawyers and courts to abuse the partners and children.
My teenage son is having discussions with me now about separating the artist from their art, which I get. He understands and supports my JD stance because I showed him some of the unedited live streamed courtroom footage from the US trial and we analysed it together.
I feel a hypocrite because I love Woody Allen films. I think he’s shitty for running off with Mia Farrow’s adopted daughter, but I am really unsure of the child abuse claims, social services investigated thoroughly and didn’t find anything.
The question is, should I be letting my 12 year old daughter watch Pirates of the Caribbean. She used to love those films and Depp’s character?
Bearing in mind I would have to leave the house for the period because my disgust response to his voice makes me switch channels and walk out of cinemas when his Dior Savage ad comes on.
Good points! Thank you. ☺️ “These men need to know they are replaceable and that they can’t hide behind being “but they’re good artist” anymore. As long as we keep saying this there will never be space for men who are actually supporting women and are good artists to come to the front.”
So many posters defending misogyny and sexism in the music industry because - why? - it's banging tunes!! One won't hurt, surely? No wonder it thrives!
This is so relatable. I have struggled with this. I enjoy a lot of music from rappers and hip hop artists who are incredibly misogynistic. I try to keep some of it to a minimum. Sometimes, I just can't handle listening to certain songs much anymore, though I love the beat and voice. But sometimes they're stuck in my head, and I want to hear them. There are other songs and other ways in which I engage with pop culture that is sexist on a daily basis. Same goes for some shows with homophobic jokes weaved in here and there and other forms of discrimination.
So good of you mentioning living with contatictions. I think it is the only healthy way to do so. Of course being aware of it. I avoid purists all togehther but as an old German feminist I did hide my love for the music of Frank Zappa.
I can't stand Snoop or Thicke or much pop music at all and I have become - personally, not prescriptively - unable to listen to music with sexist lyrics. However I'm a mad Miles Davis and James Brown fan and would not theoretically want to sit down to dinner with either.
It's hard to navigate a misogyny drenched culture and I think that rather than insist that no one engage with sexism anywhere, we just find a path that's tolerable and get on with trying to change the culture towards a deeper more genuine equality between the sexes.
So glad you said all this. Years ago as a young feminist in Leeds I was talking to a woman who told me she would only read books written by women. At the time it was a real put down, but I remember thinking how much good reading I would miss out on if I tried for that level of purity. Instead, I rejected the idea that I should be ‘right on’ all the time and enjoyed all the dodgy TV, music and literature I liked. Over time I’ve gradually come round to the same conclusions as in this article and stopped beating myself up - hopefully also becoming aware that other people (even men) who hold different opinions or like different stuff than me aren’t actually heretics who should be lectured and snubbed.
Very refreshing read! I've been involved in disability rights for years and I felt the same way about some of the purist dogma in my cohort and the hypercritical attitude of some of my fellow campaigners who were evangelical and yet very dull.
I teach a course on the music business. I wonder if I might assign reading this article for our next discussion. I suspect some will find it enlightening and some will be offended. Some might complain about me, exposing them to JB's unsafe and unhinged thoughts. Your work is awesome.
So glad you are not eschewing your crime fiction - I am a PhD creative writing student writing both a novel and a thesis on the [in]authentic representation of mothers in crime fiction - I’m a huge fan of the genre but a little weary of the lazy reliance on the ‘blame the mother trope’, especially since becoming a mother myself: the premise is that behind every criminal/psychopath/sociopath, or even dysfunctional make detective, there is a crap mother. Those ‘crap mothers’ span the spectrum from abusive, alcoholic women who may eventually have abandoned their boys, to women shamed for ‘staying’ in DV environments or [god forbid] who have had a bit of PND and thus baby’s attachment was impaired. It irritates me, especially when you predict a dick of a mother will enter stage left 20 mins into a new, raved-about TV series or by chapter 3 of a best selling novel... but I am addicted nonetheless - it’s women aged 30-60 that make up the bulk of the readership of this genre. My PhD is about trying to write a novel that pushes back from this trope and, hopefully, might lead to writers/agents/publishers asking whether there is another way to explain a male character’s decent into deviancy. I think we can enjoy culture that taps into these negative tropes about women and mothers without being traitors to our feminism - it’s about being alert to the narratives and thinking critically about them, discussing them, not silencing them or sticking our fingers in our ears and singing ‘la la la not listening’. :)
It may be a poorly written lazy trope but unfortunately it is based in forensic psychology research. Poor attachment between mother and child for whatever reason has ongoing consequences for both mother and child. That bond is very deep and very important and needs to better understood by women today to make society better and healthier. I didn’t before having children.
Actually that is not entirely correct - parental attachment (NB. not maternal attachment) is a significant factor in individual’s propensity to commit crime [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178914000172]. However, it is just one factor: history of abuse in childhood, paternal bonding, paternal absence, intelligence, culture, poverty are all actually better predictors and precedents to criminality/psychopathology. Indeed, many contemporary psychological studies point to the issue that in pathologising maternal blame is, in fact, part of the problem we have in resolving/reducing crime as, in many cases women are, themselves, the victims of domestic abuse/violence and are on coercive and violent relationships such that failure to bond is a result of the familial/relationship culture (ie, it is the fault of abusive and violent fathers and male familial figures). So we have a culture of blaming them for being victims of DV/crime [‘why didn’t she leave?’] and then blaming her for the crime. So, yes, the reliance on the ‘blame the mother’ trope is utterly lazy and overly simplistic because it ignores the factors surrounding why a mother struggled to parent her child, the lack of support available to her, and - in deed, the often hostile environment in which she is forced to operate, and is set up to fail.
I did write ‘Poor attachment between mother and child for whatever reason‘ quite deliberately as I know it is multi factorial, thank you for listing some of them out for me. I didn't intend to victim blame or inflame you, just give another perspective from someone who was born to a 1970s feminist full time working mother and raised by a nanny from four months, after school care and then myself.
Both my posts are in relation to over-reliance of a trope within crime fiction/literature when there is plenty of recent forensic psychological research that indicates that it is socially inappropriate to reply upon and propagate those outdated tropes, especially given a more nuanced contemporary understanding of their context. Specifically that there are far too many significant factors feeding criminality and psychopathy to keep using the emblem dysfunctional mothers as a narrative shorthand. This was in response to a OP about women’s right to enjoy art/culture in which misogyny is deeply embedded because we can be trusted to critically evaluate our individual relationship with it, hence my reply. It was not my intention to derail the OP’s post or create a discussion on the topic of maternal attachment.
‘It was not my intention to derail the OP’s post or create a discussion on the topic of maternal attachment’, well maybe you should just tick the ‘like’ button next time rather than a self aggrandising comment.
Fantastic post!! I agree wholeheartedly 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 PS: my fave carry on film is Carry On Camping 🙈😂
I love Metallica. They are not Feminists, but they have improved from their early days when they sold their tank top as a Wifebeater. I am aware of the contradictions when I listen/watch/read, then I decide if I am OK with that. I have grown up in a largely toxic, male dominated world and have had to navigate that as best I can. This is what we do. At least I can see the misogyny now, and point it out, but I can't give up the pure joy of Metallica live or JD Kirk's Hoon series. In Life on Mars the TV series I can find it funny. I love Regency novels as well. As I read them I find echoes of the entitlement and ownership of women then in the behaviour of present day perpetrators. I simply couldn't be a purist, not cut out for it, or too old.
Recently, my company had a big meeting where they rented out an arena and Snoop Dogg closed out the show as a big surprise. I left after a couple of songs, but the next day I heard he had strippers on stage. I don't think women should have to sit and watch sexually objectified women next to their male coworkers.
Thank you for outing yourself like this, Julie! As usual you are making space for women to be people with genuine complexity. I am not a fan of Snoop's music, the rap and hop hop I like is generally female voiced and calling out bullshit rather than celebrating it. I think purity tests with no room for growth, learning or forgiveness are one of the rails that are running us towards totalitarianism. What I like about Snoop is his attitude. Have you ever watched his show So Dumb It's Criminal? The banter with other celebrities can be cutting but when speaking to the non-famous on that show he is Kind. Now, how do you feel about Sean Paul? Or is dancehall not your thing? ;)
My outrage is at you choosing Tha Doggfather over The Chronic.
Can I ask people a question? Johnny Depp. I can’t watch any of his films, I don’t want my children watching his films. I’ve never been a massive Depphead, I liked his work and thought he was talented.
I have followed Nick Wallis on Twitter for ages and he was covering the case in the U.K. it seemed fair and reasonable outcome. Amber seemed ok but young and a bit damaged, their marriage seemed a total disaster both of their own making.
When he announced that he was talking Amber Heard to court in the States ‘to clear his name’, my stomach sank and I got a funny creepy feeling of déjà vu. He was starting to act and speak like my father and friend’s husband’s who use lawyers and courts to abuse the partners and children.
My teenage son is having discussions with me now about separating the artist from their art, which I get. He understands and supports my JD stance because I showed him some of the unedited live streamed courtroom footage from the US trial and we analysed it together.
I feel a hypocrite because I love Woody Allen films. I think he’s shitty for running off with Mia Farrow’s adopted daughter, but I am really unsure of the child abuse claims, social services investigated thoroughly and didn’t find anything.
The question is, should I be letting my 12 year old daughter watch Pirates of the Caribbean. She used to love those films and Depp’s character?
Bearing in mind I would have to leave the house for the period because my disgust response to his voice makes me switch channels and walk out of cinemas when his Dior Savage ad comes on.
Good points! Thank you. ☺️ “These men need to know they are replaceable and that they can’t hide behind being “but they’re good artist” anymore. As long as we keep saying this there will never be space for men who are actually supporting women and are good artists to come to the front.”
Hard to find any purity in popular culture. If the art isn’t sexist or otherwise offensive, the artist often is in their private life.
So many posters defending misogyny and sexism in the music industry because - why? - it's banging tunes!! One won't hurt, surely? No wonder it thrives!
This is so relatable. I have struggled with this. I enjoy a lot of music from rappers and hip hop artists who are incredibly misogynistic. I try to keep some of it to a minimum. Sometimes, I just can't handle listening to certain songs much anymore, though I love the beat and voice. But sometimes they're stuck in my head, and I want to hear them. There are other songs and other ways in which I engage with pop culture that is sexist on a daily basis. Same goes for some shows with homophobic jokes weaved in here and there and other forms of discrimination.
I'd only worry about politics weakening if you were a fan of Beyonce.