I asked the very same question in college many years ago when an active feminist came to give a talk. She said I could be an ally and explained why - I get that.
Feminism is great for men because feminism (patriarchy theory) is essentially a male power fantasy (men rule the world, men dictate everything, women have no agency or social power etc etc)... but as a male feminist you can claim to be that 'one good man' in a sea of misogynists (AKA 'feminist ally') and this will give you some degree of social approval among women,
Unfortunately it only works for feminist women who are addicted to victimhood and misandry. For normal, well rounded, balanced women being a male feminist is a huge red flag, precisely because it shows you are also just as addicted to feminism's male power fantasy as feminist women are.
Try expressing your own victimhood (social injustices, legal inequalities etc) and vulnerability as a man, and then see which women show you genuine sympathy and compassion and which women tell you to shut the F up. Then you can choose to hang out with the former group of women - the ones who view you are their equal, and as a human being in your own right.
But! I believe we have got to understand men.... as if there really is a typical model - there isn't! And try to understand male sexuality.
And of course men need to do this work, as women have done in consciousness raising over a long historical period. But we need to meet them along the journey and try to understand. I think the world needs this. We're in a mess, as evidenced by the nasty gender disputes and the shouting. I don't think division and shouting helps anything. But there are profound reason why confused young ppl particularly think 'changing sex' will make things better.
As for Owen J and Billy B.....they're both disappointments. And other rude words.
Nowhere in Bindel's post did I see anything resembling division or shouting.
For literally millennia of human life, social structures compelled women to subordinate their needs to men's, to be deferential, to take care of others first and always.
Women should not be responsible for cleaning up men's laundry or their cognitive, behavioral, and social dysfunctions. Let them clean their own house.
Women have worked hard to take responsibility for their consciousness raising to overcome damaging social conditioning. Men are adults , not children. They can do the same.
The truth, Claire, is that you aren’t open to feminist truths and would rather bait than contribute to feminist ideas so it would be pointless to allow you to disrupt further.
I would agree that I am not particularly attracted by the bitterness and anger expressed by feminists. I also can't make sense of their thinking that men are to blame for every injustice against women.
I recently read an article that reported on some research looking into the link between trauma and activism. They found that many people involed in activism have experienced trauma and use their activism to express their anger about the trauma. I am inclined to think of this article when I read an angry feminist rant.
Interesting. So, anything that doesn't follow the feminist narrative is a man's remark. I suppose it is one way of protecting yourself and your beliefs.
Women have done quite enough for men, thanks. We don’t need to forever “try to understand men” or “male sexuality,” or to “meet them along the journey.”
It’s time men did their own intellectual heavy lifting without women having to repeatedly explain to them why certain male behaviors are bad. Despite what society would have us believe, men are quite capable of grasping the importance of feminism without losing any self-assigned “man points.”
Men are capable of not beating, not raping and not murdering women. Men are also capable of cleaning a toilet, changing a diaper, preparing dinner, and acting like a full-grown adult when they catch a cold.
Men already know how to promote and embrace feminism. They aren’t children. Real men aren’t intentionally stupid; and real men don’t expect women to hold their hands when the scary flag of feminism is unfurled in their midst.
Men can either support the feminist cause or get out of our way.
AND, there's the pesky little fact that the reason we need a women's movement is because of domination, exploitation and abuse by men.
Ultimately as the two sexes of one species, we need to find some balance of power and cultural harmony that does not make room for these ubiquitous patterns of hierarchy between the sexes. The dingbat comment by Noah Stephens on this thread is a clear illustration as to why we need to be very cautious and considerate in how, when and where men are "included".
Honest and serious "male feminists" will demonstrate their allyship through questioning their own presumptions and motives and through efforts to change their male peer's attitudes and behaviours, as opposed to demonstrating their own view of females as less than themselves though dumb and thoughtless comments like Noah's.
I agree with every word, Julie. Virtually the same words were put to me by a wonderful woman a long time ago. I am proud to stand with, but alongside, women fighting for women's equality and a change in male behaviour.
Here is a sterling example of a man who does not know how to be an ally, mansplaining to a woman what feminism means. The man is not just some nobody, but Mark Levine, the Manhattan Borough President in New York City. I wrote to him in 2022 as follows:
“I write, as a lifelong Democrat, because one important group of your constituents, women and girls, is being run over by a group of extreme transgender activist grifters. The entire Democratic Party appears to be in their thrall and this needs to stop now. I am calling on you to stand up for women—and by that I mean biological women, something I never, in my decades on the planet, thought would have to be spelled out.
“If you want a place to start on this issue, I highly recommend the documentary “Adult Human Female.” Here’s a link: https://youtu.be/94HFMSm-JBo Also, I recommend consulting with Lisa Selin Davis, the author of Tomboys, a journalist in Brooklyn who has spent many years researching this issue and writes from a progressive stance.
“Thank you for all the good work you are doing in our behalf. I hope you will add good deeds on behalf of women to your list of accomplishments.”
This is what his office replied:
“Borough President Levine fights for the rights of all women in Manhattan, especially transgender women. Our office rejects the notion that trans women threaten the rights or existence of cis women, and our feminism is trans inclusive. We understand that there is lots of misinformation about and fear of trans women, so to learn more about how trans inclusivity is inextricable from advancing the freedom of all women, this article from the Human Rights Campaign is an excellent start: www.hrc.org/resources/5-things-to-know-to-make-your-feminism-trans-inclusive
(FYI, the Human Rights Campaign is our equivalent of Stonewall in the UK.)
The current caricature of this, such as in academia is an authoritarian mob that undermines liberal values through power games (eg cancel culture, struggle sessions) and makes ridiculous proclamations ('black people can't be racist', 'microaggressions', 'white fragility' etc.
OK, I see what you mean. You're saying the term can be unhelpful when it is used by those adhering to the most fundamental elements of critical race theory. I would hope most of continue to interpret being anti-racism as a positive thing. This is where I think there is a danger of fundamentalism causing damage.
I asked the very same question in college many years ago when an active feminist came to give a talk. She said I could be an ally and explained why - I get that.
Feminism is great for men because feminism (patriarchy theory) is essentially a male power fantasy (men rule the world, men dictate everything, women have no agency or social power etc etc)... but as a male feminist you can claim to be that 'one good man' in a sea of misogynists (AKA 'feminist ally') and this will give you some degree of social approval among women,
Unfortunately it only works for feminist women who are addicted to victimhood and misandry. For normal, well rounded, balanced women being a male feminist is a huge red flag, precisely because it shows you are also just as addicted to feminism's male power fantasy as feminist women are.
Try expressing your own victimhood (social injustices, legal inequalities etc) and vulnerability as a man, and then see which women show you genuine sympathy and compassion and which women tell you to shut the F up. Then you can choose to hang out with the former group of women - the ones who view you are their equal, and as a human being in your own right.
Clear, direct and nicely to the point. We live in times where the obvious needs saying - thank you.
Learnt this back in the 80s, thanks to people like yourself Julie, thanks.
Totally agree Julie.
But! I believe we have got to understand men.... as if there really is a typical model - there isn't! And try to understand male sexuality.
And of course men need to do this work, as women have done in consciousness raising over a long historical period. But we need to meet them along the journey and try to understand. I think the world needs this. We're in a mess, as evidenced by the nasty gender disputes and the shouting. I don't think division and shouting helps anything. But there are profound reason why confused young ppl particularly think 'changing sex' will make things better.
As for Owen J and Billy B.....they're both disappointments. And other rude words.
Nowhere in Bindel's post did I see anything resembling division or shouting.
For literally millennia of human life, social structures compelled women to subordinate their needs to men's, to be deferential, to take care of others first and always.
Women should not be responsible for cleaning up men's laundry or their cognitive, behavioral, and social dysfunctions. Let them clean their own house.
Women have worked hard to take responsibility for their consciousness raising to overcome damaging social conditioning. Men are adults , not children. They can do the same.
Or perhaps the truth is that you just don't like men.
Oh, that one's so “original.” We've never heard that line before. Hahahah
I found the fact that you had blocked me, very interesting. I must have been getting close to a truth that is just too uncomfortable for you.
Blocking someone is usually because it is pointless to talk with them. That's true in your case.
The truth, Claire, is that you aren’t open to feminist truths and would rather bait than contribute to feminist ideas so it would be pointless to allow you to disrupt further.
I would agree that I am not particularly attracted by the bitterness and anger expressed by feminists. I also can't make sense of their thinking that men are to blame for every injustice against women.
I recently read an article that reported on some research looking into the link between trauma and activism. They found that many people involed in activism have experienced trauma and use their activism to express their anger about the trauma. I am inclined to think of this article when I read an angry feminist rant.
🤣😂🤣😂
The joy of marriage and children created
By your sarcasm are you implying that you do in fact like men?
That’s a man’s remark.
Interesting. So, anything that doesn't follow the feminist narrative is a man's remark. I suppose it is one way of protecting yourself and your beliefs.
Claire, you are a bore.
Women have done quite enough for men, thanks. We don’t need to forever “try to understand men” or “male sexuality,” or to “meet them along the journey.”
It’s time men did their own intellectual heavy lifting without women having to repeatedly explain to them why certain male behaviors are bad. Despite what society would have us believe, men are quite capable of grasping the importance of feminism without losing any self-assigned “man points.”
Men are capable of not beating, not raping and not murdering women. Men are also capable of cleaning a toilet, changing a diaper, preparing dinner, and acting like a full-grown adult when they catch a cold.
Men already know how to promote and embrace feminism. They aren’t children. Real men aren’t intentionally stupid; and real men don’t expect women to hold their hands when the scary flag of feminism is unfurled in their midst.
Men can either support the feminist cause or get out of our way.
I am not what a feminist looks like.
There should be a T shirt. Men’s sizes only.
YES!
AND, there's the pesky little fact that the reason we need a women's movement is because of domination, exploitation and abuse by men.
Ultimately as the two sexes of one species, we need to find some balance of power and cultural harmony that does not make room for these ubiquitous patterns of hierarchy between the sexes. The dingbat comment by Noah Stephens on this thread is a clear illustration as to why we need to be very cautious and considerate in how, when and where men are "included".
Honest and serious "male feminists" will demonstrate their allyship through questioning their own presumptions and motives and through efforts to change their male peer's attitudes and behaviours, as opposed to demonstrating their own view of females as less than themselves though dumb and thoughtless comments like Noah's.
This is excellent, thank you.
Thank You for revealing the real Trooper Bragg. I'd never seen that side of him.
I agree with every word, Julie. Virtually the same words were put to me by a wonderful woman a long time ago. I am proud to stand with, but alongside, women fighting for women's equality and a change in male behaviour.
Here is a sterling example of a man who does not know how to be an ally, mansplaining to a woman what feminism means. The man is not just some nobody, but Mark Levine, the Manhattan Borough President in New York City. I wrote to him in 2022 as follows:
“I write, as a lifelong Democrat, because one important group of your constituents, women and girls, is being run over by a group of extreme transgender activist grifters. The entire Democratic Party appears to be in their thrall and this needs to stop now. I am calling on you to stand up for women—and by that I mean biological women, something I never, in my decades on the planet, thought would have to be spelled out.
“If you want a place to start on this issue, I highly recommend the documentary “Adult Human Female.” Here’s a link: https://youtu.be/94HFMSm-JBo Also, I recommend consulting with Lisa Selin Davis, the author of Tomboys, a journalist in Brooklyn who has spent many years researching this issue and writes from a progressive stance.
“Thank you for all the good work you are doing in our behalf. I hope you will add good deeds on behalf of women to your list of accomplishments.”
This is what his office replied:
“Borough President Levine fights for the rights of all women in Manhattan, especially transgender women. Our office rejects the notion that trans women threaten the rights or existence of cis women, and our feminism is trans inclusive. We understand that there is lots of misinformation about and fear of trans women, so to learn more about how trans inclusivity is inextricable from advancing the freedom of all women, this article from the Human Rights Campaign is an excellent start: www.hrc.org/resources/5-things-to-know-to-make-your-feminism-trans-inclusive
(FYI, the Human Rights Campaign is our equivalent of Stonewall in the UK.)
Thank you for sharing. One thing which really helps is to share examples of poor male behavior.
Thanks for the link... and your efforts. DEI is definitely a different kettle of fish here in the US.
"Stop banging on about men!" lol. I agree of course, it just made me laugh.
“ We need to persuade more women to stand up for their rights, instead of supporting men’s rights at their own expense. ”
Perfect.
Again, as always, thanks for the super helpful talking points!
I know you use it to demonstrate another point but the comparison with anti-racism inadvertently makes feminism seem like a cheap trick
What on earth is wrong with being anti racist?
The current caricature of this, such as in academia is an authoritarian mob that undermines liberal values through power games (eg cancel culture, struggle sessions) and makes ridiculous proclamations ('black people can't be racist', 'microaggressions', 'white fragility' etc.
Where have you been living?
Why?
See above in thread.
OK, I see what you mean. You're saying the term can be unhelpful when it is used by those adhering to the most fundamental elements of critical race theory. I would hope most of continue to interpret being anti-racism as a positive thing. This is where I think there is a danger of fundamentalism causing damage.
Yes, nothing wrong with being against racism, I am myself, though I also think it's folly to try to 'end racism'
here's an example of a bloke being a feminist ally - at least for 2 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS5S2Dio2_Y
You’re quite right. Anyone that’s made from slugs, snails and puppy dogs tails is inherently fucked.
I was calling myself a Trans-Exclusive Radical Dad for awhile, but it didn’t catch on.